The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Vacuum Advance

To start off, Ill let you all know that I’m somewhat of a newbie to the Stovebolt world, so the questions i ask come from lack of knowledge, so please answer and advise as elementary as possible.
I have a 1951 3100. I have somewhat converted it to 12v. I have yet to get it started. It turns over but never starts. So I’m kinda doing an overhaul on some of the engine. I’m removing the points and condenser from the distributor and adding and electronic ignition. Can i do away with the vacuum advance when making this switch?

Friendly advise....... do not use Pertronix.

To answer your question, no you can’t

If you're about to install the electronic conversion I think you're considering, that's a huge mistake. Hang onto the points and condenser, or better yet, get a new set of points and hang onto the old condenser. You'll need them!

No, you should not eliminate the vacuum advance. It's there to improve the performance of the engine at light throttle, and improve gas mileage. I'd strongly suggest that you do some studying on the function of an ignition system before you start making radical changes to a system that has run untold millions of miles with no problems, for close to 100 years. "Old" is not necessarily "bad"!
Jerry

1. Get it running with a points ignition and later switch if you want.
2. You said you are a newbie, that's OK. You asked for elementary. I like that too.
3. I, and others, will tell you that when you have a no start situation, you can do what you are calling an overhaul......or you can do some tests to see what is wrong.
4. An overhaul or tune up is done when a running motor needs TLC. Not done on a "no start" unless all else fails or if you just want to. We recommend some tests after we ask a few questions. We sure would not recommend Pertronix to a no start beginner owner.
5. The first big questions is "no start" to a beginner can mean "won't crank" or "won't even fire once" or "fires a few times" or starts for a moment but dies or backfires thru carb or tail pipe.
6. Second big question is what motor is in it? and when is the last time it ran?
7. Unless you have forgotten to tell us, you don't even know if it has spark. The first and easiest thing to check after being sure it has gas in the tank.
8. The problem with throwing parts at it for some of us is: You never know what was wrong. You may screw something up.

It will go a long way, if you need help, to answer these questions.

What brand do you suggest?

Bartamos
The engine is a 235. The last time it started was about 2 years ago. Right now I don’t have the fuel tank hooked up. Just the fuel line in a full gas can. I’m just trying to get her to start. Ive replace the points and reducer. I e replace the generator with a 12v alternator. Not hooked up yet. I keep doubting the wiring. What’s the best way (by myself)to test to see if all 6 plugs are getting spark or do you suggest test something else? By the way....can I post a video so that the forum can see and hear what’s going on?

Fuzzy, to start electrical adventures, get a VOM meter(inexpensive, readily available) and learn how to use it. Then you can start at your ignition key to see if you have voltage there, then follow that downstream for keyon adventures to the distributor, if electricity there, get a spare spark plug, hook it to one ignition lead at the spark plug end, lay that spark plug across the intake manifold so you can observe the firing end, turn the ignition on, turn the starter and observe if there is a spark on the plug. Make sure that plug has a good electrical contact to the manifold, no grease, paint, etc.

That would be step one.

Ed

Thanks Ed. I have a VOM. I’m assuming I can witness a spark and push the start button, from inside the cab, all on my own? I may need to educate myself a little more on the circuit and the correct wiring.

If you have the original foot starter you will need a helper to watch for spark while you crank. Be sure to turn the key on.

A long screwdriver or a pry bar from under the hood is a good work-around for the foot start pedal. I've been doing that for 60-something years and it hasn't failed to work yet. Solenoid starters are much easier- - - -just use a push button switch and a couple of pieces of wire to energize the solenoid.
Jerry

Don't forget to take it out of gear.

5. The first big questions is "no start" to a beginner can mean "won't crank" or "won't even fire once" or "fires a few times" or starts for a moment but dies or backfires thru carb or tail pipe.

I predict 16 pages on this one.

Haha. She’s completely torn down. No wiring. No bed or body panels. I do have the cab set but no pedals or doors or steering wheel. So I had to test if it was in gear or not yesterday. Needless to say she gave a nice kick backwards. Yes I cleared everything from the front and back just in case. She’s in neutral now. Does the clutch have to be pushed I. To start the truck or will being in neutral allow me to start it?

26 Pages

It fires but it’s like it’s not getting fuel to actually start.

1. How many wires on the coil and where do they go? Be specific.
2. Is this still a 6V truck or has someone converted it completely to 12V.
3. Sounds like you already know how to crank it.
4. Do you have a foot start or a dash mounted push button or a key start? I know you have a key switch/ignition switch. Some are just on/off. Some have a spring loaded start position.
5. I'll tell you how to wire the ignition after these questions are answered.
6. What brand of what? do we suggest?
7. Did it fire after the last work you did to it? After the last parts you added? Make sure you know what "fire" means.
8. When you said points and reducer, did you mean points and condenser?...or a voltage reducer?

"It fires but it’s like it’s not getting fuel to actually start." Don't give your analysis or folks will go off on a tangent using your analysis. If it fires it has spark and some gas. Not ready to decide what is wrong until we know what is wrong. We all have our guess right now but further info from you will narrow. All we need is your careful answers. Answer the questions in order to maintain order.

Stop trying to start it. Stop swapping parts. If in neutral, you don't need to push clutch.

40 pages, and a few episodes of moderator meddling!
Jerry

1.
2. I have started the conversion to 12v. Swapped out generator for 12v alternator. New 12v coil. New 12v battery. nothing else has been converted (light bulbs - horn) This truck is completely torn down
3. Yeah i know how to crank it
4. I have a push button on the dash. Key switch is on/off
5.
6.What brand of Electronic ignition should i consider? A few guys said dont do Pertronix
7. The last time i tried to get it to start was yesterday. I put a shot of gas in the carb, hit the start button and it turns over. (hopefully thats the correct term). It does everything but stay running. Ive been trying to get her started for a year now. (when i have time) SO yesterday i decided to take the distributor, fuel pump and carb off to clean good and inspect real good. Thats when i decided to switch from points and condenser to and electronic ignition. So those 3 pieces are on my workbench pretty much torn down. so to answer #1...there are no wires to the coil right now. I cant find a simple diagram for that wiring. All the diagrams look like my 84 year old aunts varicose veins in her legs.
8. Yes points and condenser

You have now created a basket case. I can not help you at this time. Very sorry. You have taken a truck apart and a motor apart and wiring apart in the middle of a 12V conversion and you want to know how to start it.

Without getting into a huge discussion and to make it simple..... There are no "brands of electronic ignition" that fit your motor. Just stock and Pertronix kit. There is a company called Langdon that converts a GM HEI to fit I guess.

Hire a mechanic to straighten out the mess you've created. Bye!
Jerry

Well I inherited this so called "Basket case" or "mess" when my pops passed away a few years ago. He bought it just as i have described...completely apart. All Im trying to do is get it running. I appreciate your insight and attempt to help.

This is why some of us are Paranoid Schizophrenics, skeptics, don't trust posters and ask a lot of questions without helping. This was an innocent post about vacuum advance and HEI. After two pages we squeezed out the whole story. We could have gone on and on about all the reasons for no start. Which is usually 16 pages. We could have just answered the simple question. I wish that folks would spell out the situation in the beginning.
So............the reason for giving up is that we don't know if you can get the distributor back in correctly. We don't know if you are going to buy a clone or Pertronix or points. We don't know why someone would take a fuel pump off to clean it. We don't know if the carburetor is apart. We don't know if you have a ballast resistor. We don't know if you have an electric solenoid on the starter. We don't know why you took it all apart without any knowledge and before asking here. We don't know what you might do next. We don't know if you plan on ever getting it back together so we can wire it and troubleshoot it after we see what it does then. We don't know if the gaskets for all the removed parts exist. We don't know what to say about what.

Don't push it off on pops. YOU started the 12V conversion, you took carb, dizzy, coil, pump and etc. off yourself. You say no wiring exists but it fired, so had some wiring that you must have removed. We have no idea if was wired right because you took off the wiring. Could have been a simple fix.

What do you want us to do for you? What do you need help with?

You say it turns over, that is called cranking, the starter is cranking/turning/rotating the motor. You say does everything but start. Does it fire? Does noise come out of the exhaust? actually begins to start sort of running on it's own? When you put the parts back together, let us know. Don't try to start. We will then go over the wiring AFTER the parts are in place correctly and the questions above are answered. We are being rough on you right now. We will ease up later.

You may already know this Fuzzy, but here are a couple of thoughts:
1. Avoid Pertronix. Others have said so, and I'll echo everything they've said plus more. The HEI unit made/sold by Tom Langdon is very good.
2. When you have the engine back together and it is to the point of turning over, there are only two things you need to make it start (assuming your camshaft and crankshaft gear are mated at the right spot):
a. fuel...and it is very easy to know if you have fuel or don't
b. spark...and you have to have that spark at the right time. As a boy, I was taught to do this and it will work: With ignition off, put the number 1 cylinder at just a
hair before top dead center position. You can either remove the valve cover and watch the valves moving or you can remove the plug and stick your finger in the
plug hole to feel when compression starts to happen as the engine is turned over. Then you know you're in the right part of the stroke. When you have the piston
at just before top dead center, remove the distributor cap and see if the rotor tip is pointing to the spot where the number 1 spark plug cable connects. Now (very
important), going clockwise from the number 1 plug on that distributor cap, make certain the next wire goes to number 5, then 3, 6, 2, 4. Now with the cap back
on, loosen the distributor a bit, turn the ignition switch on, connect the number 1 wire to the number 1 plug, hold it on a good ground and while watching that
plug, rotate the distributor back and forth a bit to see if the plug sparks. If it does, you know you're probably wired correctly...at least to make it start. Rotate
the distributor again slowly and when the number 1 plug sparks, stop and tighten the distributor holding screw. Replace the plug and wire and then try to start it.

Again thank you guys for the help. Once I get it back together and what I think is ready to start, I’ll comeback for more advice and hopefully a little more knowledge. And I won’t try to start it.

Since this thread has morphed from a simple question to a full blown try to get it started thread, I will be moving this to the Engine forum.

I think some of us who are qualified to help would like to know your level of mechanical knowledge. This will help determine the level of help you need.

Ok that will work. My mechanical level is what I call minimum. I’m always very eager to learn. I reached out to local guys around me and I haven’t been able to find that one dude that says “I’ll be over to help you and would love to share my knowledge with you”, so I reached out here in hopes of a little help.
My mechanical knowledge consist of i bought an old 350 years ago and learned how to tear it down and rebuild it. I ran new brake lines and cylinder on this 51. My knowledge of how the electrical side of this project is zero.
I’m excited to get the old truck running and out on the road. I won’t stop because my lack of knowledge. I’ll ask questions (no matter how dumb) and I’m sure I’ll make many mistakes along this journey. I will learn something from each one and continue on.

Thanks for all the constructive criticism. I need that as well.

Fuzzyx33 Watch out for sticky valves after sitting,lube em wd40 ,marvel,pb blaster keep pitchin' you'll hit it !! good luck !

Just to ease your mind, the electrical is easy. You will see when the time comes. PLEASE answer the questions/unknowns/concerns underlined in my previous post. VERY important, especially for wiring.

What field of engineering are you in?

Are you going to use a harness kit or wire you have? Harness kit would be a good idea. We can recommend. Don't need the kit to start truck. So it can wait.

Sounds like you do have a solenoid type starter and not a foot start. That means someone has done something.

Bartamos
I will do the best I can to answer and address your questions and concerns.
Can I get the distributor back in correctly?
I’m going to go with I will figure it out. And My reason for thinking this way is there is a right way to do it or else the junkyards would be very overcrowded with cars that are no good because no one knows how to get the distributor back in correctly..
POINTS/PERTRONIX/CLONE
From the advice I got today, I’m going to stick with points until I get it started and maybe I’ll just keep i that way
REMOVING FEUL PUMP
I removed the fuel pump because my knowledge of why or why not remove the fuel pump is zero. I was irritated that I couldn’t figure out something so basic and I took it off. ****please explain why it’s not a smart choice on my part
CARBURETOR APART
The carb is apart only because I bought a rebuild kit. I know nothing about rebuilding a carb but I plan on learning. It’s not completely apart. I definitely am not ready to tackle that
BALLAST RESISTOR
There is one on the firewall that is wired to the switch
STARTER SOLENOID
Yes there is a solenoid on the starter
WHAT IM GOING TO DO NEXT
I’m going to take all the advice I received today and put everything back together. Then get back on here with photos to show what I’ve done.
WHAT DO I WANT HELP WITH
Well I received a [censored] ton of help today just getting my [censored] chewed out. So keep chewing if need be, but I will keep learning. Suggestion on what to do next are appreciated.
DOES IT FIRE
The last time I started it a bunch of acorns came out of the exhaust but to be honest I haven’t looked at the tailpipe since. Since it’s not starting my eyes have been on the engine..

I’m a structural ENGINEER

I Hhavent gotten far enough to even think of a wiring harness.

I hope this clears a few things up

“The last time I started it a bunch of acorns came out of the exhaust”, so, it has run in your hands! Now for the bad news, you probably shouldn’t have tried to start it. Mice can crawl all the way through the exhaust into the very depths of the engine itself. Mouse urine will cause things to rust and stick. Pushrods could have bent. Read the Stovebolt Tech Tip on resurrecting a long dead Engine for some do’s and don’ts.
When you get the engine all back together help will be here.

Engineers- - - - -

Highly intelligent people
Well educated and articulate
No common sense whatsoever!

From about 1981 to 2008 or so, in addition to my day job of teaching auto mechanics at either the technical trade school or high school level, I ran a series of night classes for the Nashville Metro school system, teaching subjects such as "do it yourself" auto mechanics, auto body work, and basic welding courses. One 10-week session of auto mechanics, my student group included five brand new automotive engineers from the newly-opened GM Saturn manufacturing plant in Spring Hill Tennessee. These kids in their mid-20's were fresh graduates of General Motors Technical Institute, where GM trains the kids and grandkids of upper level management types to build automobiles. Someone up the chain of command had decided maybe they could use some hands-on experience at twisting wrenches. That 10-week session was about the most entertaining time I've ever spent in an auto shop! Those young men (and one lady) knew plenty about how to build a car- - - -and absolutely nothing about fixing one! A couple of them actually enrolled for a second session, saying that they had learned more about auto repair from me than they had in four years of "automotive engineering" in college!

After reading (and re-reading) the tech tips on waking up a sleeping engine, tackle the rehab procedure one step at a time. The ignition system will be one of the last things to work on, after determining whether or not the internal mechanical condition of the engine is OK. Don't get impatient- - - -a few rookie mistakes early on can lead to major damage to an engine that might have been avoided by a little more methodical approach.

Never, EVER try to use the fuel tank of a vehicle that has sat idle for any length of time to try to start an engine that's been idle for a long time. The residue in the gas tank from evaporated gasoline can gum up all the valve stems in a matter of minutes, and the next time you attempt to start the engine, you'll end up with bent or broken pushrods, stuck valves, broken rocker arms, or possibly bent valves and damaged pistons. Always use fresh, clean gas from a container such as an outboard motor fuel tank. The onboard tank must be cleaned, and/or discarded and replaced.
Jerry

Good answers. Keep up the good work. Us engineers have to stick together. Who needs common sense anyway? We got them calculations and know how to bake acorns. Like Martin says, we are open 24/7/365.

I didn't mean look at the tail pipe, just trying to describe the sound of "firing". The definition seems lost on you. Still not sure if it fired. Help me be sure it fired. I guess "trying to start" means firing, not just cranking. RIght?

Who do you think designed your car?

...........and his motorcycle

Well Fuzzy, you passed the first test with flying colors.
You skillfully saw through all of the bloviating banter delivered by our favorite bloviators without taking offense. These guys are very knowledgeable and are very eager to help.
We lose some newbies who don't recognize that right out of the gate, so congratulations.
My interpretation of your situation is that you are faced with the daunting task of what is similar to "how does one eat an elephant?" Why, one bite at a time, of course.

51 Walk around

Just a visual of what I’m working with and where I am with it.

Be kind lol

52Carl–- thank ya for the kind words. I’m the type that loves to learn so some harsh criticism is sometimes what a student needs. I’m sticking around cuz I know there’s a time of good knowledge and advice here.

Should be fun

Scott