The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 216 with 235 crank

Folks.

1950 chev ute, numbers matching vehicle.

I understand the 216 does not have the best oil system, not full bottle on it yet, but I read its possible to fit a 235 crank/pistons and flywheel to my engine

Has anyone here done it, I am getting close to needing a rebuild but wish to stay with the same block as its a numbers matching block to the ute, i have no issues with having the innards replaced with upgraded parts, it is after all 71yrs old

Steve

There are two or three problems with using a 235 crankshaft in a 216 block, none of which are beyond solving, but it's going to require some serious machining. It's definitely not a drop-in fit.

1. The thrust bearing in a 216 is a bit wider than a 235. It would be necessary to machine the flanges of the #3 main bearing on the crankshaft to accommodate the 216 bearing. The diameters of the mains are the same, so simply machining the crank would allow the shaft to fit into the block and turn properly.

2. The 216 block is about 1/8" shorter from the center of the main bearing bores to the top of the block than the 235. Since the connecting rods in a 216 and a 235 are the same length, that would make regular 216 cast iron pistons stick out the top of the block or hit the cylinder head and lock up the engine.

3. The 216 oil pump is a very low volume item. It would be wise to install a higher-volume pump, but the Melling M-45 pump that would be a bolt-in swap won't clear the oil pan. That's why later model 235's with the big pump have an offset in one side of the pan rail.

All the above problems can be solved. I'm currently building up a "216" with a bunch of radical internal modifications which can't be seen from the outside, but if I were having to pay a machinist for his time, my checkbook would need a life support system! It will end up as a 235 cubic inch engine in an original-looking 216 block, with 235 aluminum pistons and a 235 crankshaft, plus an improved rear main bearing seal and a few other sneaky tricks. I'm using shorter connecting rods from a 292 engine to solve the block height problem.
Jerry

Thats awesome info jerry, i will keep track on your build.

I am en ex mechanic, so everything yousay makes sense

My ute is a perfect numbers matching unmodified vehicle, so the idea of keeping the original block during a rebuild is a plus

Steve

I'm also tinkering with some altered-stroke engines, using 216, 235, and 261 cubic inch blocks and 235 crankshafts, with some variations using the 216 block appraoching 260 cubic inches, and 261 engines that get close to 300. The 235's come in at about 270 or so. About the only original parts in most of those engines will be blocks, cylinder heads, and sheet metal.

I grew up around a shop in the 1950's where my father built 239 cubic inch flathead Ford engines into alcohol-fueled 300+ displacement engines with 11.25:1 compression ratios. Like Hank Williams Jr. says, "It's a Family Tradition!"

The above modifications require making some alterations to the engine that would be difficult, if not impossible to reverse at a later date. It might be a wiser idea to acquire a non-original engine to modify, if possible, and put the original one into long-term storage in case you wouild ever want to go back to the original configuration. A friend in Christchurch New Zealand wants me to do something similar to a 1925 Dodge truck his family bought new to deliver productsd from their winery. He has acquired enough parts to buuild a spare engine. The truck is in excellent "non-restored" condition, and it's used for parades, weddings, and the occasional appearance in movies. I really need to think about doing that, before I get too old and feeble to make the trip!
Jerry

Were you trying to replace the original "splash" oil to the connecting rods, and convert the block to full pressure?
That's a different question.

Yes, I'm installing the 235 crankshaft and a higher-volume oil pump, and eliminating the Babbit lined connecting rods and the external spray-oil lubrication system used on the 216. That's probably what Steve is referring to as well. There's only one passageway that needs to be plugged in the 216 block to use the drilled crankshaft, and the spray oil system can be removed from the 216 pan, or an early 235 oil pan can be used, the one with the straight pan rail on the passenger's side. By grinding the 235 crankshaft to fit the 292 rod bearing, the slip speed of the bearing is reduced dramatically, allowing for higher RPM to be achieved with good lubrication. The crankpin diameter gets reduced from 2.312" to 2.100" and the rod bearing is the same as the one the 307, late model 327, and 350 engines use. 292 rods are also much stronger and more rigid than the flimsy 216 and 235 rods.
Jerry

If the rods need to be made that much smaller, they could probably offset ground for more stroke.

Ed

That's how I'm getting 260 cubic inches from a 216 block, but in that case, I'm using tool steel H beam NASCAR style rods for a Nissan 2.4 Liter 4 cylinder. The 292 rods, with a little adjusting of the cap width with thrust washers, allow the use of a 235 standars bore piston in a 216 block and a 235 crankshaft, without going to a custom made piston.

A 235 with a 60 overbore and 292 rods can displce 251 cubic inches by offset grinding the crank for 1/8" extra stroke, (4 1/16") also with regular 235 oversize pistons.
Jerry

When I bought my 52 Chevy truck it had the original 216 the sellers dad told me back in the late 70s he rebuilt the engine and installed 235 pistons with the 216 rods engine ran great but anything or 50 mph pistons sounded like they wanted to jump out of the block. A couple of years later I removed the 216 and put in a 1957 Chevy car 235 just wondering if I should have kept the 216 engine? That 216 found a new home in a 47 Chevy fleetline.

He probably didn't check the piston skirt clearance properly when he installed the 235 pistons. The 216 block has to be bored .060" oversize and the cylinders have to be honed for the proper fit. I bore the cylinders to the exact size of the bigger pistons, and hone for the proper clearance, usually about .0015"-.002" The "216" ends up with 224 cubic inches when std. bore 235 pistons are installed.
Jerry

Is there such a thing as a numbers matching AD?

Yes, when the engine serial number that's in it matches the title that that was issued to the original purchaser. Lots of states, and apparently some foreign countries used the engine number for identification purposes. Lots of bolters have encountered problems with titling vehicles they purchased that had an engine swapped by the original owner, or someone down the line. Standardized "VIN Numbers" are a relatively recent thing.
Jerry

It depends on whether the first DMV "title" used the Engine Serial Number (stamped into the block at the rear of the distributor) or they used the Vehicle Serial Number (on the metal plate between the hinges on the driver's door jamb).

North Carolina expects to see the Vehicle Serial Number (until a frame serial number was used around 1956). That plate must not appear to have been removed (for painting, for example).

If your Australian ID codes are similar to USA ID codes:
here are USA 1950 Engine Serial Numbers and Vehicle Serial Numbers

What are your two codes - ESN & VSN ?

We have different codes, our registration papers have the engine number and the body number, example engine number on mine is R356118 this I am assuming would have been issued in canada as part of chevs ckd kit and the body number is HP51194 which was issued by the australian company contracted to chevrolet at the time to locally build thr vehicle, which was holden or GMH which was a merger of holden and general motors

Both these numbers were on the original regsitration form in 1950 and are still the same today, hence its a numbers matching ute

Steve