The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot '60-'66 Trucks Ignition problems- 305E V6

Ok. Will do. If you have any pointers for safely cleaning engine, I’m game.
Got to stop for today. I’m due somewhere at 5:00 and I’m dirty from crawling under truck for pics. I never did pull plugs to turn by hand because I got remote button, so next time I will clean timing disc, pull plugs and turn by hand as you said. May be tomorrow, may be Monday. Depends on what my gal has going for the weekend. Thanks again guys. I’m trying my best.

OK, later.

Martin, Jerry, et al, What do you think he should do next?

Check your PMs

Back at it, cleaned timing disc, I can read all markings. Took plugs out, trying to turn by hand, not having much luck.

not much luck doing what?

Turning engine by hand

plugs out, trans in neutral, socket on crank nut CW

Ok. I definitely do not have a socket that size, do you know the size off hand? I can grab one later on the way to work.

Don't know, find a bolt or nut that matches or measure or push some playdough on it and measure that.

7/8” is closest I’ve got, too small.

Good deal, we have reached 10 pages!

Well today is done then. Work soon.
I’ll measure and get proper socket.

10-4

Two things that stick out to me, and I agree Bartamos has been stellar:

• the OP was asked to place his thumb over the number one spark plug hole to determine the compression stroke several times and that has not been done. This would accomplish two things you would find out if the timing is on the compression stroke and second you would find out if the timing chain has slipped. Once you know your on the compression stroke, look for the UDC mark and line it up to the pointer. Check where the distributor rotor is pointing to. To me this is the first thing that should be done
• Hot Rod Lincoln asked to remove the fuel line from the carb and operate the starter and pump some gas in a container to see if the fuel pump is working and that has not been done.

One thing I would like go add is the possibility of water in the gas. I rebuilt the original carb then changed it twice on my 4-wheeler before I found that water was getting into the tank. Boy did I feel stupid!

I assume the 305 has a solenoid, and if it does, the OP could buy a remote starter switch and then would be able to perform these test himself. They are not much money and you can pick them up in most FLAPS. Heres one from Autozone. [LINK]

FYI, the OP did purchase a remote switch.

I did use the remote switch to get to compression stroke, and that is currently where timing disc and rotor are. Rotor is just past 1st plug and timing disc is a good bit past the UCD stamp, well above the dead center mark.(there is a photo link somewhere back there), I am going to try turning by hand tomorrow as Bartamos laid out, and I will report back.
I appreciate y'all.
-Jimmy

One more question. At one point I had a jumper going from battery+ to ignition coil+, and resistor wire, and hot wire from starter off of coil.
I put them back to run a test that was recommended here in the thread, to see what voltage the coil was getting at start.

If I do try and fire it up tomorrow, should I go back to jumper method?
(battery is fully charged, reading 13.19)

You are not going to try and fire until the results and pictures of static timing procedure; and you may be rotating some more with plugs out after.

But yes you will be using the jumper. That is later after static timing procedure is done. If it's out of time because of chain or valve train, you would not want to try and start. You can damage the motor. Be patient. You may have to take valve covers off at some point.

Jimmy and I have been working off line to keep the back and forth off of the post. The timing shows good. Stopped at 5 BTDC and rotor was on No. 1, went around twice again, rotor in same place. Hope the repeat means chain is OK. He has been doing really good for his first time with this stiff. I suspected that the weak/no spark was due to the way spark was tested. So now he has good spark. In case he has bad gas as was suggested, he is getting new gas and will squirt down carb. No throttle at all for now. We know carb has gas because he saw is squirting. Seems like no reason to test pump yet. Using a jumper for coil during these tests. Will report.

I've read all these posts, and thought that the both of you did a good job of communicating.

I counted my incoming emails and sent emails and got 46. Plus 7 PM's. Plus 10 pics and several videos. Some may be embarrassing. Some are tough love. A lot was going over what was already gone over. We already had 10 pages on here. My last post is what happened just to verify spark was actually there. He goes to work fairly soon after we get going and emailing back and forth. That's no ones fault. Jimmy can post anything he wishes. He has compression, spark at, I think, the right time and is repeating, tried new gas down carb. No fire.
Starter is slow as far as I can tell from my house. He tells me over and over that battery is 12.6V or better. I told him that I've see starters show static 12.6V, be rechargeable but break down, It fools you. I don't want to explain the whole world of electrics, ohms law, specific gravity, hi and lo coil windings, pertronix.. to a guy who is new to this and wants the motor to start...... and i don't profess to know all that stuff either. I sensed, after a long time, that maybe he didn't know how to test a plug. He didn't. He had to buy a socket to turn the crank and so on. No big deal, but doesn't play well on here.

So I asked him to clean battery posts and clamps, starter and ground connections, to see if starter will speed up. Even though he says battery is new, take it to two places to get load tested. I told him if battery is breaking down, or starter is breaking down, that they will suck most of the available 12.6V and cause weak spark and/or weak spin. Testing with headlights on doesn't tell you if battery break down, starter breakdown, solenoid breakdown, cable or connection breakdown, ignition switch breakdown, ground breakdown.

I guess I saw a good spark from his non adjustable plugs (video) after we made some "spark plug testing procedure adjustments". So after clean cables, after battery load tests, then I guess we will attack and remove the starter. It does probably rotate enough for a good starting motor with good gas, hot spark, on a really hot day. It rotates about as slow as we have all seen on a battery going dead, but not dead yet. It's not a correct speed for a 6 cylinder, low compression motor with the plugs out. ALbeit very cold outside temps. If the starter is good, something is wrong inside motor or valve train.

Jimmy: Just thought of this!!! Check your oil ASAP to see any light color or milkyness. My grandson had water leak into crankcase and we broke the nose off of two starters before we checked the oil. Motor was locked pretty much. Whatcha call yer hydraulic lock. Just like this, we thought it was the starter. We said fudge and dang it after we found it.

Bartamos, has Jimmy actually performed a compression test? I looked thru the threads and could not see where that was done.

No not yet. Working with him now. Fresh gas down carb, no fire. Having him try full choke and pump, then no choke and no pump. Starter speed is iffy. He cleaned all cables. Trying with jumper from battery to coil pos. I can see gas surging in clear glass filter between pump and carb. I know he does not have compression gauge and no familiar with use. Hesitating, so far, to try and train and have him buy various one time items. Trying DIY methods. Getting to the end of my ideas. Not quite giving up yet.

Sounds like the coil resistance is wrong for the pertronix. When I installed my pertronix, I got the matching coil for it. The paperwork with the pertronix should tell you which coil to run. In my application the ballast resistor was taken out.

I saw a video of the spark. Don't know how to post a video. If it has spark it has spark. Had white spark. I just don't know what his kind of E3 three legged electrode spark should look like. Not used to that. Sun was shinning on plug when videoed. Seemed to jump to a different leg on each snap. He said he is running their recommended Flame Thrower coil.

1. Timing is right on, rotor returns to same spot several times, I assume that shows no timing train issues, don't know about valve train. Compression blows off thumb.
2. Gas squirt down carb test good, gas pulsing in clear glass filter located after pump, fresh gas dribble down carb, choke closed and open.
3. Plug sparks, with threads on clean metal, can't tell strength, looks good to me.
4. Jumper from batt to coil
5. Battery at 12.6V
6. Starter, semi weak spin rate, but seems enough to start. Not positive about that.
7. No discolor in oil.
8. It seems that all of the above covers the fuel, fire, compression and timing. But Obviously not. NOTHING has produced not one explosion.
9. Phil says compression. That sounds like a good idea. I haven't thought anything major was wrong but I do realize it's possible.
History is: took it around the block, started to stumble, died at home and won't even fire. Jerry say test test test, I think I have done that with Jimmy not having the equipment and knowledge. It's hard to do tests like Jerry can, with a far away member. I do the same tests without test tools. I guess I will suggest a compression tester. I think O'Reilly's loans them.

I have seen instances of the cylinder walls getting washed down with too much gas or starting fluid in a no start situation and the engine doesn’t have enough compression to start. Just throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks.

Moved dizzy 1/8 CCW, no fire. Moved another 1/8, no fire. Used jumper cables. Starter still slowish. Trying to accomplish pressure test for each cylinder with a FLAPS loaner tester. Tester malfunctioned, release mechanism may be leaking. Brass release button fell off, can't find. May have dropped into a plug hole. Vacuuming thru plug holes to find..........

Wow!

I owe, I owe, so off to work I go

If you are not making mistakes, you are not doing anything.

and there it is.................. Jimmy bought a scope.

I think it's a boy.

Too bad it’s brass, some of the scopes have magnets on the end.

Yes, that was the first thing I thought of, magnet on a piece of plastic tubing. Pistons are aluminum so would have worked. I sure hope the first test was bogus because of a screwed up tester release valve.

1 = 70psi

3= 60psi

5= 85psi

2= 0 (button found here) (spring for button found in cobweb somewhere)

4= 0

6= 0

Going to rig up 1/4 ID tubing to the shop vac and get it to "stick" to the suction. The piston got stuck during trying to get to TDC. If it was the exhaust stroke it hampered the first shop vac effort before we know if and where it was. Tried to bring piston near top to create a small chamber. The chamber would have not pulled a good vacuum if valve open. Does not matter now we know it's in there and where, no need to pull a vac on whole chamber. Probably better to let piston down now for better visual and straighter attack angle for hose/tube.

Maybe one of theses they are a handy tool and cheep

Not bad but a more blind approach and would need to be exact. The hose can wave around like a magnet and catch it. If it appears below the hole, the grabber may be good. But the piston top is not perpendicular to the hole centerline as far as I know. That is a good thing for the tube because button will be on the gravity down side.
I'm asking him to push button down against bore wall to trap it for the suction tube. Also asking of suction tube can be attached to scope head, sticking out a little so as to see it, and guide it right to the button. Hole probably not big enough for that. Maybe stick hose in after scope head goes in and then visually guide it to button.

This motor is looking for 125 PSI +
10% variation OK. Maybe.
Consistency, as we all know, is important. It's a dry motor right now and it can't be brought up to temp either.

Got it with the tube. Heavy snow coming.

Don’t you just love it when a plan comes together!

Yes, but the real plan has not come together yet. Very glad to get that button out. Jimmy is a trooper. Tried to retest, got a zero reading and taking gauge back. I myself have never heard of a zero so I said it has to be a bad gauge. That would be a mighty big hole. The initial goofy test showed bad PSI all over. I guess, if true, that means valve train/chain all screwed up. I don't believe it yet.

Just asking, not criticizing, does he know how to do a proper compression test? Three cylinders very low and 3 at zero = very suspicious readings. Borrow a better tester and try again.

We have gone over test: throttle open, choke open, plugs out, 6-8 compression strokes for each cylinder. Watch for gauge needle to stop moving. He is getting a different gauge set. Weather may delay the test. I have gotten his permission to update the post. I'm close to a dead end depending on the compression test. I will, or Jimmy will, ask members more experienced than me on compression failure procedures to help. If the test shows good pressures, I am probably still at a dead end and have missed something myself. Sadly. We will see.

Martin, your or anyone else's help, questions and positive support is appreciated. There is no offence at all taken. thanks