The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot '60-'66 Trucks 61 sub 4x4 engine perch

Hello out there this is my first time participating in a forum. I have a 61 gmc suburban 4x4 and factory manual. it had a v6 originally but was missing upon purchase. Now im attempting to put a350 in it but am having problems with
finding the perches. The cross member a tubular one and appears to be original. does anyone have any suggestions, i havent been able to locate any thing bolt in . will i need to custom fabricate them?i l look forward to any leads. thank you
I will post some pictures soon.

Welcome. Can you show us some pictures of that cross member (as well as entire truck)? That might help us. In the meantime I will let one of the GMC guys come along.

Here is a pic of my 1960 GMC K1000. The tubular crossmember was not used by GMC to mount the motor. As you know and can see, they used a mount just aft of it. Then the trans was mounted to the next crossmember. My trans crossmember was bolted in and was removed in the pic.
As far as a SBC swap, I would use an aftermarket universal tubular crossmember for the motor. Don't know what trans you are using. The perch idea is for 2WD where there is a place the lower part of perch to land/bolt on the 2WD suspension/crossmember.
This or equivalent may work. There are trans mounts that are the same idea depending if your existing trans member can be used/modified, or not. There are lots of odds and ends to consider.
Depending on your fab skills and where the V8 block motor mounts end up, you can attach other aftermarket motor mounts to the frame or to the existing V6 mounts, or build your own. Best idea for this is to get the motor mocked up in there and think, measure and plan.
Check your front upper shock mounts, they are always broken, cracked or repaired. I have a good method to replace.
All in all a fairly easy motor swap. I kept the V6.

ok, i took some picture and am going to attempt to post them. A couple of things, the pictures of the perches are what was in the bed when we got it, the trans is a SM420 and was inplace when we brought it home i plan to keep it in use , and the engine came out of
a 83 3/4 ton chevy truck. After getting power plant in i need to deal with brakes and power steering( suggestions?) .
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1. Do you have the original transfer case? ....and the brackets?
2. Do you have a 350 motor in hand?
3. Are you talking power disc brakes in front?

Also I see your original motor mounts have been removed from the frame.

Yes, it is still in place and the motor is on a stand in front of the truck now. The mounts were missing when we got it. Would the original v6 mount work?(wrecking yard item?)

Bartamos, thank you for the advice. Sorry I missed the question about brakes. I would like to have power disks but just getting the drums upgraded to power would do for now. I really want to get it up and driving.
there are other aspects that I need to inquire about but I will work on joining engine and transmission and placing them. A few questions for the future
1. Is there a larger fuel tank available, the existing is under the bed( can saddle tanks be added?).Do you know how many gallon tank it is?
2. Is power steering feasable?
3. Are there small lift kits avalable and are they feasable it has 33x12x15 on it now but the tolorance look tight. It sits low on the R/R ( broken spring may be?)
4. Do you have any sugestion about service/shop manuals
5. You made mention of the front shock mounts( L/F has been repaired )
Thank you Bartamos for the information this is my first early truck project and I appreciate your time and knowledge.

On the 60 to early 63s Chevys used that front round pipe to mount a V8. You would need to weld a flat piece of steel to the crossmember,round pipe and find a horseshoe mount for front of engine.

Don't think the original V6 mounts are the way to go now. I have given you an answer about motor mounts. (side mounts). Please always answer all questions so we can get your questions answered.

Question from above:
3. Are you talking power disc brakes in front?

Re trans: The SM420 is cantilever mounted to the bell housing. Fits all Chevy bell housings. You will need a "truck" bell housing with the side mounts for your 350. Your cross member has the provision for that mounting method, a mock up will tell if the new combo will land on the crossmember or will need modified. Probably will be OK. You probably have an hydraulic clutch, you will have to arrange for that or switch to mechanical. Be careful with bell housings. GMC 305 V6 won't work and I think 62 or older Chevy won't work.

The mounting brackets you show for motor are not what the usual perches look like. Don't see what good they would be. Perch idea is out anyway.

Nice to see you are keeping up with your post. Most new guys don't do that. I asume they ask the questions in 6 different forums and when they get an answer, they abandon the others. Then we start talking to ourselves for two weeks

FYI It is very difficult to get power disc to the K models and bit of trouble to get Power steering. The closed knuckle front axle is old technology and has sealing issues. Soooooooooooo..... a way to get open knuckle, power steering, power disc brakes, better bearings is to swap the whole front axle, provided you can match the ratio, to a 70's or 80's 4x4 front axle. That needs to be on a different post. Motor mounting on this post and steering/brakes on another.

60's GMC used the Dana 44 diffs, they are very good diffs. Nothing wrong with front drum brakes.

Thanks Bartamos, Ill be joining the componets together this week and do a mock up and see where I land. I will post the progress at the end of the week

Bartamos, do you have any suggestions for manuals for my 61 sub? I don't know if the manual on CD is any good. I bought one many years back for my 65 cutlass and it was very incomplete. I was preparing to start the mock up
and realized that there seems to be some missing parts for the clutch linkage. There are no rods or lines that would connect to the shift fork there doesn't appear to be any linkage. So how do you figure if it should be a mechanical or hydrolic clutch?
Another thing on the new clutch assembly I bought is forked and the old one is a diaphram. Can I use the pressure plate off a sm465 on the sm420 that I'm going to install? its the same diameter and has a 168 tooth count

The 61 would have had a hydraulic clutch. The clutch fork was operated by a slave cylinder mounted to the passenger side of the bell housing. There was a master cylinder on the firewall with two ports, one tube went to brakes and the other tube went to the clutch slave cylinder. You probably have a bell housing now that has the clutch fork on the drivers side. GMC was hydraulic from 60-63, then mechanical.

You now are in the Chevy world. It is probably a mechanical clutch on drivers side, don't know, no pics. If it is, you will need to get a donor bell crank and rods from a 64-66 GMC or I think all light Chevy trucks had mechanical 60-66. You will have to study the situation. I believe your options are:
1. New drivers side aftermarket hydraulic clutch kit.
2. Donor clutch pedal/brake pedal, linkage, bell crank and fork.
3. Adapt GMC pedals to whatever you have or want.

You need to get a GMC manual reprint or used original From Ebay. 60-61 same manual. (N series) X-6003 Click.

I can't answer the clutch 420 465 questions without research. There is a bell housing/tranny pilot diameter issue. Go to Novak web site and read all about it.

This is a bell crank , called Z bar by the cool crowd. Get hip to ebay for donor parts. Junk yards are gone or stripped. No mask required on Ebay.

Another

There is an assembly manual for 60-66 Chevy/GMC. Don't know if you need that or not. Ebay.

Ihave the original v8 bellhousing and the front engine mount, but it looks like you want to mess with other newer stuff

Joe, "original" bell housing and front engine mount for what motor? Where is the clutch fork hole?

He is not messing with newer stuff, just at the mock up stage with his motor and trans.

283, passenger side fork for hydraulic clutch original as i stated for a v8 . Since he is using a 350 should work for him. I also said i have the front engine mount, all he would have to do is weld a small piece of flat steel to that round tubular mount like a chevrolet K series truck had

If it's cast iron it should fit large and small flywheels. The sm420 will fit. sm465 will not. Don't know what bell housing he has or what tranny he wants. Your parts may be a good option.

Mr. Plum: The 420 and 465 have the same GM 4 hole bolt pattern and input shaft dimensions except the "bearing retainer" diameter is 4 11/16 on 420 and 5 1/8 on 465 so check the big hole in any bell housing you decide on vs what trans you decide on. There is an adapter ring available for 420 into a 5 1/8 hole. If you use an aluminum bell housing, some do not accept the 168 tooth FW.

Bartamos, I joined the eng & trans and the trans adapt cross member came. I think I'm going to take the front clip off so I can manuver things around.I still have the dilema of the clutch. I've seen a few different set ups. I looked at the Novac design that you sugested
I also seen a hydrolic throw out bushing ( eliminates the shift fork?). I know that I will need to install a slave cylinder( placement on the fire wall?). I'm all ears. I'm going after a manual today. I'v been creeping around underneath and it looks pretty ruff under there
brake lines are very beet and the fuel tank situation will have to be addressed (the tank cant be more than 15 gallons it's tiny). the body bushings are all over the place as far as their conditiion( I was thinking they should be replaced. that being said moving the frame out and dealing with it seems fairly straight forward. then I could wire it and paint it). what are your thoughts about moving the booster out of the frame rail and placing it on the fire wall? It seems to me that when the exaust goes in it will have to travel down the drivers side pretty close to the booster the transfer case looks to be an obstruction on the passengsr side. I have a doner 74 square body to pull booster and master off of. ( what do you think the 454 is worth? it could help a bit with the sub expenses). thank you for your time it has been more helpful than some of my local shade tree mechanics.

I'm getting slightly confused. Too many variables at once. Too many issues at once. New info for the first time.

1. Yes, always take front clip off with a swap like this.
2. I don't remember suggesting a "Novak" design of something?
3. You said in first post you had a factory manual already?
4. "moving booster out of the frame rail and placing it on the fire wall" What booster?
5. The stock truck has a brake and clutch master cylinder, with reservoirs, on the fire wall. Some may have had factory power brakes. What does yours have?
6. The stock truck has a slave cylinder mounted to the passer side bell housing.
7. You said you were installing a 350 motor and now you mention a 454.
8. Many of us would love to have an older 454. Golden if near or before smog.

So lets reset here.
1. Mock up the motor and post some pics.
2. What side is the hole for the clutch fork on bell housing?
3. Do you want a hydraulic clutch or a mechanical clutch. It's up to you to decide. Then we can suggest ways to get there. Read above posts to get the history and options.
4. The headers/exhaust will be whatever they have to be, to clear whatever they have to clear.
5. I assume you got the motor mount from Trans Dapt. Does whatever bell housing you are using have side mounts? Pics?
6. So lets stick to one or two things and do the mock up and see what's what. The value of other parts to be sold is for a different post in a different forum section. Gotta manage the basic swap here. Motor and trans fit, HEI fit, motor and trans mounting, clutch plan.

Radiator, exhaust, steering, brakes will have to be synergized.

In a 4x4 swap, it's a little tricky situation. If the person is trying to use existing front axle, transfer case and all 3 drive shafts, then the front axle dictates the location of the motor. There is some adjustment due to the slip yokes. Not much. So... the front axle and it's driveshaft locates the Xfer case, Xfer case and its input driveshaft locates the trans and then the motor is attached to the trans, in a backwards assembly scheme. This is the description of a person like me who installed a donor 454, 350 TH, 205 transfer case, front and rear axles in a 56 GMC carryall. In your case, it's similar but you have a hard mounted divorced transfer case which locates the motor.

You can, of course, change the drive train and/or have driveshafts shortened or lengthened.
Just keep all that in mind.... and the Dry Bones song:

The foot bone’s connected to the leg bone.
The leg bone’s connected to the knee bone.
The knee bone’s connected to the.......

Bartamos, I have the engine and trans in the frame. I am going to attatch some photos. the mount sit 12 inches back from the factory cross member and the trans is connected at the rear cross member ( shoul I remove the factory cross member, Crank pully is right above it).
The photos show what i assume is a power booster, the shift fork hole is on the drivers side of the bell housing ( the casting number on the bell is 3815891).I think I want to go with a hydrolic clutch set up and I am using the 350(I'm just going to have a 454 to put on the market). When I said I had a manual I was refering to the transmission I still need to get a repair manual. The bell housing has side mounts the picture shows a bit of the mounts

1. I would like to see a pic of the motor mount cross member in place showing the whole motor. Not just a tight shot of it.
2. If you are talking about removing the factory tubular cross member. NO! Do you have a reason?
3. Does the HEI distributor cap fit on and off OK with room for plug wires to exit?
4. What is a power booster? Brake booster? Original Bendix Hydrovac.
5. Does the motor work in that position as far as drive shafts? Better make sure they fit.
6. Will fan blade hit anything?
7. Set radiator support temporarily in place.
8. If you are going to get power disc brakes, IF you can find a kit or DIY, you won't be using that big old booster. You will use a new modern booster. That booster you have is worth some money.
9. Set carb mounting surface to zero level with truck on level ground. The Chevy crankshaft is at 4 deg down angle to create the proper pinion angle. So check top of tranny to see if it is at 4 deg down.
10. Yes it does make sense to do a hydraulic clutch in your case. No pedal swap. Truck designed for Hydraulic Clutch. There are several easy to install kits for Chevy V8 bell housings.
11. So that master cylinder reservoir on you firewall was plumbed to the hydraulic clutch slave on the passenger side of the V6? How is the Hydrovac plumbed and how is the master cylinder on it operated? you may be able to use and original dual master cylinder on fire wall until power disc is figured out Later. I would have to see up under dash to see your pedal push rods. In a non hydrovac, there are two push rods side by side. One on the brake pedal and one on the clutch pedal. They went into the firewall dual MC.

You have much more mocking up to do while motor is in it's proposed place, before you start cutting anything. The idea is to NOT cut anything.
So far you are doing a real good job. Put the motor mounts on and the crossmember on and leave them on. Show pics of that. You don't ahve to cut the tube yet, just leave the ends off if you want, but be sure ends will bolt to frame on a flat spot. Put exhauts manifolds on with a few bolts.

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Good pics Joe but he is past the motor mount issue and his clutch hole is on drivers side.

Yes i know he is, just cant figure out why someone would do it the hard way i guess

In my opinion he is doing it the easy way. The front mount has little or no adjustment and requires welding on a plate, and finding a new pad. I'm sure your offer is appreciated. No use us fretting over it. It's done and he is gone bye bye.