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I'm restoring my son's 58 Panel in his honor and need some help with it. Currently it has a 67 Camaro 327 with an Edelbrock 4 barrel carb sitting on an edelbrock air gap intake manifold. It has headers with glass packs. Behind the engine is a Muncy 4 speed tranny. As this truck was built to be a sleeper, I still want it to stay that way. As it is now, it will still blow away most imports off the line and squeek three out of four gears. A friend suggested that instead of a blower or supercharger, that I run dual turbos. I want to take that a step further and mount the turbos behind the rear wheels and french them into the body. The rear lower quarter panels are rotted out anyway so why not?

Other than the obvious piping headaches, does anybody have any other suggestions or recommendations? Thanks.

Mike

There's actually a company that makes turbo kits like that. Don't remeber the name, but they used one of their kits for a 'Vette on Two Guys garage a while back. Worked real nice as it didn't get as hot as a normal turbo because of the exhaust gasses being cooled down by the time they get to the turbo. Also, no intercooler needed for the same reason. Piping amy not be too bad, as things can be kept pretty much in a staight line inder the frame.
Chevk out the Two Guys Garage site for a possible linkto that company.

Never mind, I found it!!
http://www.ststurbo.com/tv
let us know if they can help you out!

I see mostly disadvantages to "remote mounted" turbos.

A turbo is most efficient if you can keep the heat of the exhaust until after it exits the turbo, then let it cool. Part if the reason that in some applications the turbos and manifolds are wrapped in "blankets", or ceramic coated.

The other disadvantage it the large amount of air in the system between the engine and turbo makes for a slower response than if the turbo is mounted at the engine with as short as possible pipes.

I do suppose any sort of turbo is better than none at all, but for the most bang for your buck
I would not use a "remote mounted" turbo

When I first saw the ads for the "remote mounted" turbos I thought it was clever, and it is, but after some thinking I have decided it is about the last choice for how to install a turbo.

I have a turbo in my 48 Chevy, and twin turbos in my 61 ford, pictures on my link below.

Grigg

i can't imagaine how much lag there'd be.....
well, put the motor back there too!

Well, just my .02, but the turbo road is a slippery slope. What engine management system are you going to use? What's the compression on that 327? Turbo motors like low compression to avoid detonation and poking holes in the top of the pistons, or busting ring lands.

Yes, turbos can make lots of power, but give me cubic inches any day. Unless you are going for a good gas mileage motor that is high performance, or a motor that has to perform at high altitudes (airplane), or is a diesel, I can't think of a good reason to turbo.

Take this for someone who is making about 280 h.p. from a 1.8 motor on turbo. I have to run a sophisticated programmable engine management system that includes, along with the computer, a knock detector, an air temp sensor, and intercooler. I still have problems cooling the whole system, you pretty much are in constant tuning mode as seasonal temps and gas mixes change. Are you going to change to fuel injectors? Good luck tuning it with a carb.

Not trying to be negative, just realistic. I'd think you could build a nice 350 or 383 with some fancy high flow heads etc. and make 400 or more hp or spend twice or three times the amount for turbos and have something that might be faster but not very reliable.

But don't let me stop you from doing what you want. I'm just trying to say turbos have a lot of their own problems (heat management, knock management, boost management, plumbing management, fuel management)..

If you really must go the turbo route, rear mount turbo systems need a reliable system to get oil to and from the turbo<s>. Some setups use a Tilton pump originally designed for rear diff coolers. I think the STS kit uses engine oil pressure to oil the turbo, then a tilton style electric pump to scavenge the oil and return it to the engine through one of the valve covers. Several F-Body folks have done turbo small blocks using the 6 cyl Syclone-Typhoon code and setting the cylinder select byte for 8 cylinders. This gets you features like knock retard, boost control timing and fuel management, etc, but with a considerable learning curve. Another approach might be to find a turbo engine-trans package from a GMC Typhoon or Buick Grand National and use it complete with the factory electronics. Most of the engineering is done, and they make plenty of torque. Much depends on your area(s) of expertise. Stay in your comfort zone and you're likely to have an enjoyable driver. Just my .02.. Cheers,
mv

When air leaves the turbo it is hot, because it has been compressed. Engines run best if they can gulp good cool air. Hence, the advent of the intercooler for turbocharged engines, like a radiator for air to cool the previously compressed air before it enters the intake system. By cooling the air the intercooler boosts horsepower more than the turbo alone.
A rear mounted turbo would have the advantage of lots of piping run to cool the air, but I wonder if you would maintain the boost pressure over that great a distance. Anyone know for sure ??

Interesting.

As long as your system is leak free, you'll maintain pressure. Modern turbos can move a lot of air in a hurry. There are quite a few rear mount turbo systems in use today. It adds a level of complexity over traditional installs. Mike, your truck has the under hood space for a traditional turbo setup, yes? Also, R-Bo, that Mazda sounds like a truckload of fun.
mv

MVee,

You do lose some pressure over the distance of piping. I don't know if it would be a factor in the several feet of piping from the back quarters to the motor or not.

One thing to do if you are going to DIY your on turbo, get the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. I believe in there he has the formulas to calculate things like pressure loss over distance (and diameter of the pipe).

The Mazda is pretty much a hand full and is only really fun on the track (when it isn't overheating). On the street it is a traffice ticket or accident or both waiting to happen. Like walking around carrying a hand grenade and the pin pulled out--you have to be careful all the time. If you get hard on it you are ready to go to jail by the time you get it out of 2nd gear.

It is fun, you just have to pay attention 100%--is the road wet, are the tires cold, what is that old lady 500 yards in front of you going to do. You have to think about all that before you pull the trigger. The only way you get turbo lag is if you are in too high of a gear and it is lugging already. Otherwise it is pretty instantaneous.

Turbos ay? I think you are speaking my language. You could go the turbo route with your engine but I would want to switch it over to fuel injection before ever trying to monkey with setting up a carb. The air after the charger is going to be hot so you might want to cool that with an intercooler. Those are pretty easy to pick up aftermarket. There is a company that makes a kit for the old 6.5L GM diesels as they weren't factor intercooled. You also have to think about how much boost you want to make. Gas engines traditionally make far less boost than a diesel so don't shoot for a crazy number like 30. Turbocharging can be done, just look at cars like subaru. Or if you really need help with the turbos you can look at Banks Engineering. I think they have turn key small blocks with sigle or twin turbo options.

I'm looking at putting the turbos in the rear of the truck and frenchingm them into the rear panels behind the rear wheels. With the distance from there to the engine, the temp should drop without using a cooler. If I need to I can put some heat sinks on the pipe running to the front to cool the air more. As far as boost, I was looking in the 5 pound range. Talking to the head engine builder at Furniture Row Racing, he said that more psi than that and I would have to look at changing valve train components including push rods. I've got some time to do this so I'm still in the thunkin stage. Thanks for your help.

Mike

I think if you want a turbo or two go with a diesel.

If it must be gas then I would go with something already figured out, like an engine from Banks, as I hear that tuning a gas engine with turbo can be a nightmare.

Grigg

I think it's still about CFM, so as long as that's worked out, the only other consideration will be turbo lag. I think the length of the ducting required would make this idea a non-starter. Better by far, I believe, would be nitrous or a supercharger driven directly off the crank. Either those or cubic inches. But there's something about a small engine delivering FAAAAAR too much power that would appeal to your son, I think, 58.

I think an LB7 Duramax w/ twins would look really good under your hood. But seriously, over on inliners they have a lot of information about super/turbocharging so I would say take a look at what is posted over there.

I think the idea... sounds cool... frenched turbos...lag would be tremendous...I have a forester xt, they put the turbo right on the engine... no lag there..imagine stepping on the gas...the exhaust gets going and starts to spool the turbo the impellers turn...they compress air and force it all the way up to the engine...I'm not a math genius but that would take a while...I think it would be tough to control that...the supercharger would be a better route... more sleeper.. you hear those turbos and you see them... people know you are fast...but it's your truck... do it how you want to..I think the fabrication skills that would go into your idea would make it totally worth seeing...the cool factor alone would make it worth the effort..
can we compromise and put them in the front fenders or the hood?

A good article on turbos is in the December 03 Hot Rod followed by intercoolers in January 04. A few tech explanations and graphs but mostly in layman language. Already mentioned is to keep as much heat in the turbine housing as possible and keep the air from the compressor to engine as cool as you can. Also highly stressed is to keep the whole system as compact as possible to cut turbo lag. Something from way in the back of the truck would surely have tremendous lag. Along with the engine management required is the process of getting the right turbine/compressor combo for a specific engine and the best turbine and compressor wheel design. You just don't get one size fits all right out of the box for even the most popular engines, it does take several tries to get right. If you have 15 pounds boost, the max for a street engine, intercooler, engine purpose built for turbo, and all the correct management then your 327 will dyno out close to the same readings of a normally aspirated engine twice that big. Buddy Ingersol was banned by NHRA from running his turbo Buick V6 (with intercooler in liquid nitrogen) from Pro Stock because the 500ci aluminum headed, dominator carbed big blocks didn't have a chance against him.

You just caused an 8-track-flash-back over here... Back in the 70's when I first started turbocharging, Buddy raced a "AA Modified Compact" Pinto in NHRA. It was a draw-thru 2.0L carbed turbo setup that turned 10s in a 2800 lb Pinto. He and a guy name Ohio George Montgomery both ran in the class with similar turbo Pintos. The later ProStock Regal sufferred some reliabilty problems, and the tradition 500 inch guys threatened to boycott NHRA, as IHRA was paying big money at the time, and allowing them to run the 700+ inch engines. I love turbos, but they aren't turn-key for a newbie. There will be a big learning curve. Your primary enemies are leanout (exhaust temp) amd detonation. As for rear mount systems, apply all the theory you want, then go to a dyno when they have one on the rollers. You will be impressed. They make big torque & HP nunbers when sized correctly. 35 years of turbos has taught me that increasing the volume of the exhaust tract causes some lag, but not so for the intake piping. My vote for your truck would be to go naturally aspirated, put in a nice cam, and keep it traditional. Drive it! Enjoy it!

Will go slightly against the grain here, to suggest that building carbs for turbos is no more difficult than for anything else if a suck-through design. Blow-through designs are somewhat more challanging, depending on the boost. We have build many over the last 40 years.

All are more reliable and less expensive than EFI. Remember the cell phone wasn't necessary until EFI, and then the cell phone had to be invented to call the tow truck or possibly the Brinks truck :bigger grin:

Jon.

ain't that the truth-I have seen many cars w/carbs come in w/gas running out the top of the carb, & pooling on top of the intake-folks were still driving them-as long as the engine turned the pump kept pumping gas & the things still ran.

maybe compromise stick the turbos under the floor pan near your feet?
i lashed up a turbo set up in a few hours with stuff i had lying around and it worked pretty good
also had a blown turbo on another so set about fiting one homebrew as the proper unit was $$$
i figured the diesel engine was 2.0 and the petrol turb was 1.8 so allowing for cc and rpm it should work??
well it did but needed to ,,come in,, about 1000-15000 rpm lower it was fine on the highway but in town was a pig

yes turbos like lower c/r but not 100% needed some n/a versions of the same engine run the same c/r my 1st conmversion was n/a and i just stuck it on and it worked just dont go too big or it will be all top end
for a pump for the oil find a nissan 200sx rear end and rob the pump
you may find 1 turbo is enough for what your looking for
good luck