The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Breaking bad...bolts or, How to get unscrewed

I copy pasted this from another site: “Afriend of mine shared this with me years back I read this thread and thought of it right away,*Machinist’s Workshop” recently published information on various penetrating oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for “break out “torque” on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque required to remove the nut from a “scientifically rusted” bolt. **Average torque load to loosen nut:*

*No Oil used ……………………516 foot pounds
WD-40 ………………… ……..238 foot pounds
PB Blaster …………………….214 foot pounds
Liquid Wrench ………………….127 foot pounds
Kano Kroil …………………….106 foot pounds
ATF/Acetone mix…………………. 53 foot pounds*

*The ATF/Acetone mix is a “home brew” mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this “home brew” released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.*

*Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as Kroil for 20% of the price. *

Since there are at least half a dozen different formulas for "ATF", I wonder which one they're using to test with? I hope it's not the old "Type A", which contained a good percentage of whale oil! That stuff is almost impossible to find!
Jerry

Valuable and worthwhile infomation.
Thanks for posting!

Thanks Tom,

I was curious about this so I did a little research and found this link to what I believe is the information you provided. Penetrating Oil If you can sort through the off- topic BS, there are a lot of replies that appear to have additional information about this study and and it's effectiveness.

They also mention the use of beeswax or candle wax and heat (next step of course) that I know works. Of course tighten a little first, then loosen, and then do it again and again, a little at a time. Patience is key. I learned this early on from a few knowledgeable gentlemen on this site.

Phillip

Got it copied. in my notes and made copies for my friends. Thanks! Doc.

HRL: Perhaps that explains an outdated product called Moby D transmission fluid by Ahab Clean Industrial Refinements (Clean-AIR). Both are no longer around.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/725.cfm

That is funny Tom and thanks to HRL for his help as one of the "knowledgeable" gentlemen that helped me early on.

Like Doc, I also saved this information as another tool to have in my tool box. I always have the products to make this on hand and available.

Thanks again Tom for sharing.

Phillip

Its no mystery that freeing stuck engines and pistons is a mix of ATF, Acetone (or lacquer thinner) and Marvel Mystery Oil. Some people mix these in three equal parts and allow to soak into the bores and rings - then repeat. I just made up a three gallon batch to unstick a FE 360 but that is a discussion for another place.

It doesn't say what size bolts. 516 foot pounds torque will probably twist off anything under 3/4 thread.
There are a lot of variables that can make a difference also.

But, if I have one that gives me a fit, I get the gas axe out.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how...UTF-8#kpvalbx=_i8yiX5q4L5uE9PwP146TiAY43

Don

I used to slice the nuts off a bolt with a gas axe way back when I was a kid restoring a Model A.

The other trick I use on a nut and bolt combo, say for a fender attachment, is to tighten them till they snap. Usually works pretty well, and takes less time than trying to loosen with penetrating oil. I've even used that method with captive nuts holding sheet metal parts, then drilled out the stub, but that takes a bit more time in disassembly.

I haven't tried anything other than PB and heat, but have found that even if you get it loose, the nut will tend to bind up and destroy the threads as you turn it off the bolt threads that have been sticking out of the nut for so many years. I have had some success running a die over that part of the bolt to clean up the threads first.

For a while, I used PB40, use it for general stuff now. I started using heat and melting candle wax into the threads (like the beeswax above), tighten just slightly, then loosen and a tad more wax into the threads and have yet to break on off or damage the threads. Downside is it only works if you can get the candle to threads. If it's in a blind hole with no threads showing, not much I've had luck with other that heat the wee out of area around offending fastener, then place some dry ice on head of bolt before trying to tighten, then loosen. Usually end up snapping the bolt off and drilling it at that point.

Many, (including moi) feel the best stuck bolt buster is Kroil. And yes I use the homemade version of 50% transmission fluid/50% acetone. Procedure is spray, wait, spray, wait....repeat. Then a day or two later, smack with a hammer if possible, then tighten a bit, loosen a bit, tighten again, then, well you get the idea. If no luck, then bring on the heat and if the area allows don't be afraid to get the nut red and loosen asap.

RonR

Nut busters also work good on some applications.
We had hydraulic ones that would bust a nut off a 2+ inch stud. No damage to the threads.


Don

Edit: One more for the medium size nuts.

My biggest headache is not rusted bolts and nuts- - - -it's pistons that are frozen into rusty cylinders. I usually give them a good soak for several days or even weeks with KROIL, followed by the application of a rosebud torch. As a last resort, I use a big hole saw in a variable-speed drill motor to cut a plug out of the top of the piston and allow the perimeter to shrink away from the cylinder walls. A few aluminum pistons bring more pocket change at the recycler than several trash bins full of beer and soda cans!
Jerry

In the past I made the 50/50 mixture and put in a small oil can (vented w/a hand pump). I didn't use for months. When I went back to it it seemed like the Acetone evaporated. Has anyone else had this? My fault for using a vented container.

A sealed container will reduce the enol form to less than 7% because It forms a hydrazone with phenyl hydrazine and an oxime with hydroxylamine. Furthermore like most ketones, acetone exhibits the keto—enol tautomerism in which the nominal keto structure (CH3) 2C=O of acetone itself is in equilibrium with the enol isomer (CH3)C(OH)=(CH2) (prop-1-en-2-ol).

In acetone vapor at ambient temperature, only 2.4×10−7% of the molecules are in the enol form. Yet the enol form is chemically important in chemical reactions and freeing a stuck ring or bolt. One might expect acetone to also form polymers and (possibly cyclic) oligomers of two types. In one type, units could be acetone molecules linked by ether bridges —O— derived by from the opening of the double bond, to give a polyketal-like (PKA) chain [—O—C(CH3)2—]n. The other type could be obtained through repeated aldol condensation, with one molecule of water removed at each step, yielding a poly(methylacetylene) (PMA) chain [CH=C(CH3)—]n. This is the reason why repetitive hydration’s are required on a stuck bolt or piston ring. I sometimes find myself losing patience when I observe a rate greater than 2.4x10-7% molecule dissipation in the enol form. We work hard for our money. And to see that? How much more can a person take?! Very unsettling.

But keep in mind that a baggy can help slow this reduction phenomenon but a baggy is only as good in temperate climates where the ambient temperature links hydrocarbons in basic trisomuble properties to that of local atmospheric conditions not to mention contaminates from outside sources. Press seal baggies are the preferred choice than the fold over type. All of us make choices and need to decide if limiting enol forms is worth the effort. I for one sleep easier at night knowing this. But it’s your choice if you continue to use a vented dispenser system. There is a loyal following for these to be sure and those types tend to congregate in social structures worthy of mention here (most of us on this site have this in common). If confronted with the loss of acetone in his oiler back in his day, Shakespeare would have asked the same: “to limit enol forms or not, that is the question”

What did Tom say??????????????

I started in on a rant, but pulled it back to stay on topic. Apologies.

On a more serious note, since I mentioned heat as a next step in a post that was mentioning the use of Acetone (a highly flammable solvent) and we are talking about Acetone vapors, I felt a need to mention the dangers of Acetone. I am sure most everyone here knows this but it never hurts to make sure.

One of my wife's best friend's husbands was severely burned and almost lost his life when he was working in his shop and unplugged an extension cord which resulted in an explosion. He was removing some carpet with a highly flammable solvent. He also had safety training where he worked, so he was very familiar with the dangers of flammable solvents. (He just made an almost fatal mistake.) This happened several years ago and he is still recuperating and lucky to be alive.

Shortly after that I purchased an explosive gas alarm for my shop as a precaution.

Phillip

That's not a bad idea at all.
A number of years ago here in town there was a natural gas leak inside at a trailer park. The guy inside was VERY lucky, because the explosion basically leveled the trailer (good thing they aren't constructed very sturdily) and left him standing inside going "HUH??" It brought to mind the cartoons where Wily Coyote gets caught holding the dynamite he's trying to use on the Roadrunner. Funny there, but serious in real life.

While we're on the subject of explosive vapors, let's not forget our old friend gasoline. One day when I was running the auto shop at a state vocational trade school in Tennessee, I walked to the main office just after class was dismissed for the day to run some off a test I was preparing to give on the copier. About 30 minutes later, I stepped back into my shop, and was greeted by the overpowering smell of gasoline. One of the repair bays with a 2-post hydraulic lift had a Pontiac on it in the middle of a transmission change, and the students had left the lift raised at the end of the day. When they shut off the air compressor which was part of the daily routine, the lift began to lower itself slowly. The rear hydraulic cylinder had gotten ahead of the front for some reason, which jammed the front lift and stopped its travel. The car was at about a 45 degree angle, and about 5 gallons of gas had spilled out of the filler neck behind the license plate. The fumes filled the whole shop.

Now, here's the "rest of the story"- - - - -This happened in early November, and the temperature hadn't quite gotten chilly enough for the two huge natural gas furnaces at ceiling level to start working. Td one of them had lit off with the shop full of fumes, the entire back of the school building would have ended up a couple of blocks away! I opened all the bay doors very carefully, and let the place air out thoroughly before turning the compressor back on to lift the car back to a level position. I also borrowed a camera and took several pictures to illustrate my 2-hour safety lecture to the entire class the next day!
Jerry

Lots of good luck in the situation you just described Jerry! My first career was in natural gas distribution. One thing we sometimes had to wrestle with customers on was how high a gas hot water tank had to be if installed in a garage. 18" is the safe burner height. Reason, gasoline fumes stay below that height and a pilot or burner (shouldn't) ignite any gasoline fumes.

However I strongly agree, had the overhead furnaces' in the school shop kicked on and the fans stirred things up it could've been a heck-of-a fire.

RonR

I was not going to mention this because most will not believe it to be true, but my wife had just summoned me to help her with a chore when I was preparing the reply on explosive vapors. I started to stop and not reply, but felt a need to say something. When I finished the reply and I went to help her, she was on the phone and she waived me away. When she finally finished the call and was ready for help, she said that she had just received a call from an old friend that had not intended to call her. She actually had to ask my wife who she was. This old friend was the wife of the man who suffered severe burns that I had mentioned in the reply. She had not talked to this old friend in over a year. She mentioned that he was back at work. This accident happened in 2017 and he did not go back to work until 2019.

I believe this was a sign that I did the right thing and it hopefully it triggered a broader conversation about safety. (I believe it has.)

While the Explosive Gas Detector I purchased is probably more suited to natural gas and propane, I still try to be extremely careful when working with highly flammable solvents.

Phillip