The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Converted from Motor to Budd wheels

Hi All, I might be over thinking this, but I had a question about stud types on these New Design bolts. I have a 1953 GMC 453 with the 302 and the 6 bolt wheels, the truck came from the factory with Motor Wheels which are hub piloted 20" tubes. When I got the truck it had military tires on the front and (by my guess) 40 year old mix of Toyo/BFG/Firestone tires on the rear. One of the things preventing me from using this old girl is the tires. Local shops refuse to touch the split ring 20", so I decided to go tubeless. Searching around this forum I saw that Wheels Now WN28157T work nicely on 6 bolt trucks, as they're 22.5" tubeless. I for some reason did not even bother to check the dang lug type on this truck before ordering these. So once they arrive and I test fit I obviously saw the dilemma. So using Budd type nuts (Ford BB1120), I can make the fronts work. With the rear, because the Motor Wheels use longer studs, I cannot thread on normal Budd type inner nuts. One option is to cut the threads a little deeper and trim the ends of the rear studs to work with the inner nuts.

But my question is, did the trucks with Budd type wheels use the same 3/4"-16 studs as the Motor Wheels, but just shorter? All of the weight is moving from the hub to the studs, so there is a decent increase in load on these. I cannot find any information on these trucks that came with Budd's from the factory to know if the studs are larger in diameter or maybe of a harder steel?

I searched about this forum and the prevailing response on this issue is to just change the studs. But looking at the factory GMC maintenance manual it's pretty involved process as the studs need to be pressed out and in, also I am not sure where to even find these Budd studs for a 450. My other idea is to just return these and order a set of hub piloted wheels. I talked to Wheels Now and they said they do not stock or know of any 6 bolt hub piloted wheels (Motor). If I needed them, they would have to be custom made at a higher price.

So if the studs are basically the same between Budd and Motor, I think it would be easier to just cut the rear threads a little deeper and trim the ends so the inner wheel nut fastens correctly and just run these WN28157T. This of course is also ignoring the fact that I have all right hand threads, and the driver side will not be the normal left hand setup. If that is not a viable (safe) option, I guess I will just have to take the measurements and have Wheels Now make a custom set of hub piloted versions of the WN28157T - which I guess keeps the truck original in that regard with running the factory optioned "Motor Wheel" style setup.

Thanks for reading this is you made it this far, with my plans to use this truck with some heavy loads I want to make sure I am not compromising it with "hacking" the Budd wheels on it.

Hy blueck, firstly I do not know if Budd wheels were ever used on 1953 400 series GMC trucks. I'm pretty sure we could find some appropriate length studs if we looked for them, or you could shorten your existing studs, however the method of shortening is important as well as we don't want to put much heat into the stud in the process and mess with the studs temper. I know it is not a five minute job to change the studs, but that is what I would vote for. If you could remove at least one front and one rear stud and post the specifications here we could help you look for some appropriate studs. Hope that helps.

Your pictures show a deadly dangerous mismatch between the lug nuts and the wheels. The wheels do not have a taper for the nuts to engage, and the squared-off shoulder of the wheel hole will damage the taper of the nut very quickly and cause the nuts to loosen up. Either get a machine shop to cut an accurate taper in the wheel holes to match the lug nuts, or use a flat nut with a thrust washer for a hub-centric wheel. Is the hole in the wheel a snug fit on the machined part of the hub? Those wheels were never intended to be mounted in a stud-centered application.
Jerry

I agree with Jerry.

I too am concerned by what I see. Do not use those wheels until you find out the true clearance between the center bore in those wheels and the diameter of the hub they are to be centered on. It needs to be a very close fit. They do make two piece flange lug nuts specifically for hub-centric wheels, but whether the flange is large enough in diameter to cover those large stud holes safely, I wouldn't know for sure.

You might find someone who works for a company that sells and services wheels and their related parts for larger trucks to have a look and get their opinion on it. That same person who has a look might also recommend some thick rings that sit between the lug nuts and the face of the wheel to help bridge that much larger hole to stud diameter relationship. I can't remember what those rings are called, but my stock 53 GMC 2-Ton has them on all four corners.

My two cents...

There's also nothing wrong with the tube-type wheel with the lug tire on it in your picture. It isn't one of the Firestone RH-5 "widowmakers" and any truck tier shop worthy of the name shouldn't have a problem with servicing them. Try a store that specializes in farm equipment tires- - - -they should be ready, willing and able to do the job for you. Shops that do nothing but passenger car and light truck tire service just don't know the difference in what's dangerous and what's safe.
Jerry

Thanks for the feedback. Wanted to clarify a few things, first there is a small taper in stud holes. Attached is a picture of it and the nuts that I've tried. Second the 450/470 factory maintenance manual printed 9/52 shows a Budd wheel option for these trucks. The diagram from that manual shows a similar wheel to stud relationship as I've tested so far with this combination. These 22.5" wheels are stud piloted wheels, so the center bore of the wheel does not make contact with the hub.

Well, I stand corrected. Unfortunately, I don't understand this stuff enough to be able to help. But I will be watching this thread closely.

OK, that photo shows some detail the other one didn't. Now that we've resolved that, I've got another suggestion. Rather than modifying the studs, how about fabricating a spacer plate to fit between the brake drum and the wheel? A piece of steel plate about 1/4" or 3/8" thick the diameter of the wheel mounting surface with the proper lug bolt holes drilled in it should space the wheel out far enough for the inner nut to tighten properly, and the slight increase in track width won't make a noticeable difference. The spacer could even be attached to the drum with a couple of flat head screws, maybe 5/16" or 3/8" in diameter to keep it from coming adrift during wheel changes.
Jerry

You, sir are a genius. I will look into spacers.

I agree with Jerry that the original wheels should be no problem, so long as they're in good condition. If the local tire shop won't change them and you don't have access to a truck/farm shop, you can change them yourself. That of course depends on your physical strength and ability to swing a duck-bill hammer to break the bead. In my youth, I changed many of them as the feed company yard had more than its share of nails. As low man on the totem pole I got to change all of them. We did not have a cage so two lengths of 3/8" chain and a couple of bolts were the safety. Oh, and a clip-on air chuck for inflating. We did not have any Chevrolet trucks so I was never faced with the Firestone wheel problem. All but one were Budd wheels. The one was a Mack with Dayton wheels that I hated for a variety of reasons.

It seems to me that changing over wheels when you don't have to is a lot of unnecessary work and expense. Heavy-service 10.00x20 tires are still available.

I have brand new 10.00-20 tires that were originally military issue.
They have always been stored indoors.

I can help u out with tires if your looking for OEM rubber in new condition.
I put them on our 52’ GMC dump in the rear.

well with the spacer it just moved everything out past the bed more than my liking. i'll just have to keep these wheels and swap the studs someday. in the meantime i finally found a shop in the east valley that was willing to work with the wheels.

the truck had a mix of 8.25 and 9r20 on it, and the shop had the 8.25 at a good price and in stock. little small for my liking but they handle similar weight, so it will be fine.

What brand of tires or those? I assume since you reused the original rims those are tube type?

Power King, one of the few who still make and import tube 20" to the states. And yes, I got new liners and tubes with these. Just going to paint the wheels and finally install.

The inner nut you picture is actually made for aluminum wheels. This is the inner nut you need. The studs you picture will work themselves loose. I have operated a fleet of trucks for over 50 years. I have run spoke, Budds and now hub piloted for the last 25 years

https://www.4statetrucks.com/wheels/semi-truck-budd-wheel-inner-nut-for-steel-to-steel_202264.asp

If both of the of the same thread it will work. Make sure the inner nut doesn't bottom out. If it does cut the wheel stud off to size. Screw a nut to where you need to cut it off. A portable band saw works well for this. Saw them off and dress the cut a little and then remove the nut. We do this sort of thing all the time. Actually you should have left handed threads on the driver side of the truck, but you probably won't find them. You will have to use right handed threads all the way around. There is a possibility that the right handed threads on the driver side might work lose with time so you will need to check them routinely. A good way to do that is to put a small dab of paint on the nut and the wheel so you can tell if the nut starts turning.

painted and installed.