The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 1929 engine swap

I've had a 1929 Chevy sitting in a barn for 10 years now, engine is bad. I haven't found a good replacement head, though 3 bad ones. So time to seriously consider a swap. I understand a 216 or 235 will fit in with some parts. 1938 ish transmission from a 1/2 ton , bellhousing from a 1938-46 truck, clutch/brake mount from a 1936-46 "big truck".

My questions are:
1. What am I leaving out?
2. There is a 1938 1/2 216 with bellhousing and transmission for sale on facebook. Can I just bolt this whole assembly in and then bolt (?) the clutch/brake pivot mount to that bellhousing? I understand the rear of this transmission will mount my existing driveshaft yoke somehow...
3. Does the clutch/pivot mount bolt on? Are they difficult to find?
4. The car has a brand new (10 years old, but less than 3000 miles) brass honeycomb radiator. Will that provide enough cooling for the bigger engine?
5. What else am I leaving out?

Thanks,
Dave

How "bad" are the cylinder heads you're dealing with? Cracks can be repaired, and valve seats and guides can also be changed. It might be simpler (and less expensive) to look into getting one of those heads reconditioned. It's also possible to machine the connecting rods for replacement bearings- - - - -I seem to remember that an Oldsmobile or Pontiac rod bearing can be adapted to the pre-216 rods.
Jerry

You use the word “Car”, are you working on a truck? From the rest of your post it seems like you are working on a truck. If so, I suspect the engine you refer to on Facebook could be made to fit with a few modifications. The experts will show up soon.

The "car" is actually a woodie wagon my Dad and I put together in 2004. I drove it all over the place, Pennsylvania, Maine, putting close to 3000 miles on it. Then the original head developed a crack. Every engine I've bought to replace it has a cracked head. The engine in currently has a slight crack between 5 and 6. And a mean grumbling from the min bearings. I reshimmed the connecting rods as they were very loose. Then got discouraged. Life brought me in different directions, but now with the corona virus, old projects are back on the table. My thinking is that with the better running engine, I'd have an easier time running around. If it's going to be too much, I may just decide to sell and move on.

Yesterday I changed the oil, drained the old gas, put in a new battery, swept out what seemed like 8 pounds of mice droppings. A little cranking and a few squirts of starter fluid and it started up. Bad noise from main bearings, but settled down to a nice, if uneven, idle. I'm still leaning toward swapping out the engine. Can I use the 1937 (it IS a 1937, not 1938 as described above) drivetrain listed above, or will I still need to find a 38-46 truck bellhousing and 36-46 "big truck" clutch/brake pivot mount. I think the 1937 does not have bellhousing mounted pedals. Thanks, dave

Dad wants to see if we can get the main bearings adjusted instead of replacing the engine (again). When I was taking shims out of the connecting rods, I'm pretty sure there looked to be at least 3 shims in the main bearings. At least that's what my memory says. I've since lost my shop manual, do the main bearings adjust the same as the connecting rods? Do they all just unbolt from bottom? Is the oil pump in the way of the middle bearing? It seems like that was a nuisance when I did the connecting rods. Then I guess we'll have to find a machine shop(previous guy out of business)for the head and see what that's all about. Thanks for your help,
-dave

In the days before Plastigauge came into being, bearings got adjusted by sandwiching a thin piece of shim stock between the crankshaft and a bearing cap, and shimming until the crank could be turned with a slight amount of resistance. The same procedure was done for every bearing in the engine, rods and mains. The really skilled Babbit bearing fitters "scraped" the bearings first, before shimming for clearance, trimming away any high spots on the bearing with a razor-sharp cutter made from a 3-corner file with the teeth ground away. That procedure still works well, if you're patient enough to do it. It's very labor-intensive. Findintg an oldtimer like me who still scrape-fits bearings is the tough part, but it's a skill you can learn if you're willing to spend some time. It involves coating the bearing with an indicator dye called Prussian Blue, turning the crank, and looking for bright spots, then gently scraping the soft metal away until you get a smooth blue smear with no streaks. Then shim for clearance. It will keep you out of the beer joinnts at night for weeks at a time! Have fun!
Jerry

Today I dropped the oil pan and began inspecting and adjusting shims on the main bearings. I started with the rear bearing. It actually looked pretty alright. I used some plastigauge on it with two shims in place. Around 0.015. Moved on to the center bearing. Took a while to figure out how to drop the oil pump so the bearing cap could drop. (learned that if you take the 3 screws off the plate it's possible to have the whole pump fall apart, vanes and a little tiny spring will go zooming all over the place...luckily we had another to compare to when putting back together) Dropped the center bearing cap and found this....There were no shims on the cap. Looks like this is a bit beyond a home repair...Put everything back together. Now back to drawing board.

What condition is the surface of the crankshaft? If it's not deeply scored, you might be able to salvage things. Loosen or remove all the bearing caps so the crankshaft can drop a short distance, slip a piece of emery cloth between the shaft and the block, and "shoeshine" the shaft until it's fairly smooth, then use Prussian Blue to indicate where to scrape the bearing material in the cap and smooth it up. If you run out of shims before getting the score marks smoothed out, it's possible to file the mating flange of the cap to reduce the clearance, and keep on fitting and checking. The only thing you won't be able to do is smooth out the upper bearing, at least without taking the engine completely out of the car and removing the crankshaft. With as much remaining bearing material as the photo shows, that one is very fixable.
Jerry

Thanks for the reply Jerry. I guess the photo doesn't show it clearly enough, there is virtually no babbitt material left, just the underlying shell. The crank doesn't look to bad, a scorch mark where the center bearing is. I would have to assume that the crankshaft is bent though, right? If all the babbitt is worn from the center, but plenty left on the back (verified) and the front (assumed), wouldn't that mean the crankshaft itself is "bad"?

In the meantime, we have the original engine which my Dad pulled in 2008. That engine needed rings (we put those in shortly after finding out the "good running" replacement engine wasn't) and a new head. It's been sitting in the corner since I got discouraged and stopped working on it. I think we are going to make a stand for that engine, swap heads and see if it runs....

Your photo shows a pretty thick layer of bearing material at the parting line, and the diagonal lube groove is still there. Don't trash that engine- - - -someone experienced at scrape-fitting bearings can fix it easily. You can mount a magnetic base dial indicator to the block and check the main bearing journal for runout if you're concerned about a "bent" crankshaft- - - -which is pretty unlikely. People who are accustomed to working with glass-smooth insert bearings just can't comprehend the process of actually making a bearing fit the shaft it's running on. I guess when old geezers like me finally take a dirt nap, that skill set will go away with us- - - -nobody is interested in learning how to do it.
Jerry

Huh. I had assumed that the dull alloy/tin colored material was the babbitt. The bearing has virtually none of that left, just the rust colored part. I do see the lube groove and it does make sense that if that is there(it gets cut into the babbitt after pouring, right?)then babbitt material must still be there. But why is it not the same as the other bearings? The rear bearing cap had a good bit of the alloy/tin colored material. What is the flaking alloy/tin material?

That said, yesterday we drug out the original engine, checked the bearing caps on it(they all "looked" fine), flipped it right side up on a wood engine cradle. Too tired to do any more on it.

Thanks!

Dave, your plan using '38 parts seems to be the best solution, know several guys that took that route. Also a friend had to modify the front edge of the 216/235 pan plus the crossmember to make her fit. Another fellow used the '38 trans and also the '38 crossmember this is in a '30 roadster, beautiful show car and fools most as it looks like factory.

That gray colored material is a "flash coat" of pure tin on later model engines with replaceable bearings. On a poured bearing like yours, I don't have a clue, unless a different alloy might have been used to recondition the main bearings sometime in the past. Lots of strange stuff can happen to an engine in close to 100 years! Look up the "Rotometals" website for a good description of the various alloys of "Babbit" that are available. Babbit metal is a mix of copper, lead, and tin. More copper in the mix gives a brown-looking color and a harder bearing. Chevy used a VERY hard alloy with a lot of copper in the mix for their spray-oiler engines. When I'm machining a connecting rod for an insert bearing I can always tell when I'm whittling on an OEM Chevy rod- - - - -the bearing material dulls the cutter bits a lot faster than one that's been reconditioned with a softer alloy.
Jerry

You are right, Jerry, the number of different babbitt material is extensive. And who knows how many times this engine has been apart. The cylinder bores are clean as a whistle, no scratches etc. We took the front bearing off to check it. It has a large chunk (say pea sized) of the tin/alloy colored material missing from the center. I didn't have my phone with me so unfortunately no picture. It's a ragged hole, with whatever that material is, over 1/16 inch thick, easily flaking off from the edges of the missing piece.

So we, decided to keep moving on with the original engine. Took the head off engine #3, looks like a brand new copper head gasket, head popped off easily. We could see no breach between cylinders etc. Removed carb, manifold, fuel pump, starter, head and started bolting things on original engine. Next step is removing engine from the car...

Holes, chips and scratches in a bearing surface don't necessarily cause problems until they become extensive enough to compromise the area that comes into contact with the shaft. They just make good reservoirs for oil. As long as the shaft is smooth and there's enough contact area to carry the load of the shaft, the oil clearance is much more important than having a completely smooth bearing. If the bearing is generally in good shape, just chamfer the edges of a pit or flaw so there's no jagged edges to keep deteriorating the soft metal. Bearing scraping and clearance-setting is becoming a lost art due to the universal use of precision-fitted bearings in the past 75 years or so.
Jerry

ChevyDave,
I’m following along here and hope you keep on with the 29 engine. You might be able to fool some if you drop in a ‘38 motor, but you will always know.

Hey Rich,

Not trying to fool anyone. I'd just like something I can drive easily for longer distances without worrying. That was the goal. Looks like now we are going to put back the original engine with new rings....we shall see how that goes. Next is to confirm original engine runs well. Built a wooden cradle for it, hopefully we'll get to work on it this weekend. Currently working on putting in a floor in for my sister, so...:-)

OK, today we got everything bolted onto the original engine in the cradle. Temporarily wired up to start. Cranked over very slowly with a (new) 6 volt battery but wouldn't start. We quickly decided to use a 12 volt battery to get it to spin up quickly. It cranked, but wouldn't start, or even pop. Spark at points, but not at plugs. We looked at the distributor and cap for a very long time. Replace condenser, reset the points. We compared the cap to one we found way in the back of the parts cabinet. It looks like the distributor cap should have a dome of graphite(?) hanging down to make contact with the rotor. But the domeless cap was just running, so we doubted our eyes and took apart the little post that goes through the side of the distributor trying to find someplace where things were grounding out. That is a fun little thing to play with on a hot humid day in the full sun. After taking it apart and reassembling it several times (and of course ripping the gromet), putting little pieces of electrical tape here and there with no difference, we finally swapped out the distributor caps. Crank, crank, crank. Maybe squirt just a bit more starting fluid. BOOM. Backfire thru carb and now I don't have anymore hair on my knuckles....

It just backfires thru the carb, doesn't want to start. So, I think we solved the spark issue, but what would cause the backfire thru carb without running at all? Timing? Any ideas?

Thanks!

Are you sure the firing order is correct? On later model Chevy 6 cylinders (216, 235, etc.) the firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4 with the distributor turning in a clockwise direction. Also be sure the distributor rotor is pointing toward the plug wire for the cylinder that's on the compression stroke when the coil fires.

Have you checked all the cylinders for compression? A burned or sticky intake valve will let the fire from the cylinder back up into the intake manifold, and a too-tight valve adjustment on one or more intakes will cause the same problem. Use a bright light and inspect the inside of the distributor cap for "carbon tracks"- - - - -they look like fine pencil lines from one connector to another that can let the spark jump to a plug wire that's not supposed to be firing at the time. Good luck! Use starting fluid sparingly, if at all. A teaspoonful of gasoline down the carburetor throat will accomplish the same thing with a lot less drama. Good luck!
Jerry

Make sure you get #1 cylinder to top dead center on the compression stroke. Remove #1 plug and place your thumb over the hole bump starter til your thumb is pushed off. Then turn engine by hand the 1-2 inches one way or the other to line up the BB timing mark. See where the rotor is pointing and start your wiring from that point on the cap. Sounds like you might be 180* off. As Jerry said use gas not starting fluid. Starting fluid will wash down the cylinder walls and you will lose compression.😎

Ok. I think we will start with looking at the timing. I woke up last night remembering that I had dropped the oil pump to compare with the oil pump I had mistakenly disassembled. I'm thinking that when I put it back, I must have turned the distributor enough to throw it all out of whack. Is that possible? Likely?

I guess I "could" use gas instead of starting fluid, but then there would be less "excitement"....

Simply dropping the oil pump shouldn't have had any effect on the distributor timing but most of us who are offering advice have a limited amount of experience with the 194 and 207 engines that were used prior to the 216. Regardless of the engine size and design, the fuel, spark and timing must be correct. Do some basic tuning and confirm that you're getting compression, fuel, and spark at the right time and the firing order. Good luck!
Jerry

194/207 are the same basic design, with the distributor driving the oil pump.

OK. Today we started from scratch. Set timing(it was WAY off), adjusted valves, gapped spark plugs and points. Cranked and cranked. One backfire. Then nothing. Looked at timing again. Decided to try setting it at 12* instead of 18*. No luck. Getting spark at points and plugs. Valves are set, so assuming they are all fine (they were when engine was put into corner) we have compression. Hey, what about gas? Fuel pump not pumping. HUH.

So, I took fuel pump off. A little worn, but it was working on the other engine just a few weeks ago with no problem. I magic markered the arm to make sure it contacts the lobe. Yes, it does. Removed again and if I actuate it by HAND, it pumps fuel. When I bolt it to the engine, no pumping. How is that possible? Is it possible to put these fuel pumps in incorrectly? Can the arm be worn down just enough to stop working? Can I weld a bead onto the arm? Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks!

I’m not familiar with the 1929 engine. Does the fuel pump operate off of the cam shaft? If so is it possible you have it installed with the arm in the wrong position on the cam.?🛠

Yes the pump has a lever that rides on the cam shaft. I don't see how it could be installed incorrectly (though it MAY be possible), it seems like there is only one way it can go. The arm is too short to go behind the camshaft, and has an angle to the lever so you can feel it touch the camshaft as you are pushing it into place.

The short stroke of the pump that the camshaft provides might not be enough to make a worn pump work. Try installing the pump with the bolts a little loose and work the housing up and down by hand to see if you can make some fuel flow. Once the pump is "wet" even a worn one might move enough fuel to get the engine to start, at least. You could also use a low pressure electric fuel pump, at least for diagnosis purposes.
Jerry

yeah that main is GONE... i am in the process of rebuilding my 1929 engine. i removed the brass inserts and sent them out to be rebabbit, then having a local shop grind and polish the crank and then line bore it to match the crank. the 1929 does NOT have replaceable inserts, but the brass portion pops out and you can have them poured and rough cut. then final cut at line bore. also sent out my connecting rods to get them poured and machined to match the polished crank. Pauls Rod & Bearings did the work, great place and top notch. Russ is a great guy to work and deal with.

got tons of pictures of everything coming apart, and going back together, the engine is still in the shop stuck in the midst of this pandemic.

here are a few shots of the old ones

fyi you can put a 1930 head on a 1929 without any issues !! 1929 was a one year only on many things

i had the same issue on my 1929 it would pump fuel by hand all day long, but in car nothing !! did some measuring and foudn out that the arm was worn too much, yes it touched the cam but it did not move it enough to get a stroke to pull fuel. also checked the lobe on the cam to ensure it was not worn out. ended up haveing a friend weld the arm up then i ground it back into contour and bam it worked. also make sure the springs and arms work fine, the diaphragm is seated, the fuel bowl is sealed air the to the pump or it sucks air.

making sure the fuel system is sealed is critical...
all hoses are sealed and tight
glass fuel is seated and sealed to fuel pump
diapgragm is sealed and BOTH top and bottom surfaces are FLAT (should be soft, pliable, and pull taunt when installed)
wafers/ valves are seating and sealing

you can remove the fuel line in and out and hook a vacuum gauge to the inlet and test for pressure
then hook gauge to the outlet and test for pressure.
cheap and easy thing to do is buy the rebuild kit and rebuild it, is quick and easy...
i too the time to blast the housing and clean up the hardware as well. the new kits have a ethanol compatible diaphragm

I will have to check the lobe and see how worn it is. In the meantime, I'm going to weld the arm up a bit and grind it smooth and see what happens. My fuel pump looks quite a bit different. The arm is a solid piece, not a laminated one. I wonder if that is having some sort of impact as well. As I've said before, all these pieces ran easily just a few short weeks ago on the second engine. (And years ago on the original engine that we are now trying to get going again.) Hard to believe that a cam lobe can wear down just by sitting, or that the fuel arm can wear down so much in just a few miles. But I suppose that the arm/lobe must have been just at the point of failure anyway, and it's just my luck to have it all happen now. (Isn't that the way it always is?) Thanks!

Be sure to use the right alloy welding rod- - - -a soft metal rod that's easy to weld with will wear quickly and put lots of abrasive metal particles into the oil. You might want to consider using "hard facing" rod like the kind that's used to weld up the cutting edges of bush hog blades, etc. Once it's applied and allowed to air cool, it's too hard to file- - - -smooth it with an angle grinder. I'd strongly recommend finding the real cause of the problem, not trying shade tree fixes. Temporarily, why not just use an electric pump to get the engine running, then deal with whatever is keeping the mechanical pump from working?
Jerry

Well, we found out why the fuel pump doesn't work. The cork gasket in the bowl had ripped. A little bit of a soft gasket material and now the bowl fills quickly and the pump works fine. The engine still doesn't run, though. Just crank, crank, crank. Timing? If we set the rotor to point to plug #1 when the marks on the flywheel hits the pointer in the little window, then rotate engine around once, the rotor doesn't point to #6 plug but about 1/8 inch shy of it. If we then adjust distributor so the rotor points to #6 and rotate engine once, the rotor now doesn't point to #1. Frustration as hot as the temperature, so packed up.

" The Filling Station" newsletter has a special on 1928 4 cyl. engine parts if you are in need of spares.

Well, the latest update is the engine runs. My Dad hired a mechanic to take a look. In an hour he had readjusted valves (informed us we need a valve job), compression check on each cylinder (he advised rechecking after rings get run in) and retimed engine (just a tad over 180 out). I didn't hear it run, but my Dad said it sounded excellent. Mechanic happy, Dad happy, I'm happy. Might just have the mechanic install the engine.......

I have nothing to offer troubleshooting-wise, but wanted to tell you how awesome it is that you are bringing an almost hundred year car back to life!!!!

I thought I'd give you all a quick update. The mechanic who got our original engine running declined to install it in the woodie, so we had to shop around to find someone willing to do it. It was installed last Wednesday. Yesterday, my Dad and I went down to the garage to install the radiator and drive it home. Except we couldn't get it to fire again. After a half hour of all three of us fiddling with this and that we decided just to tow it home and try another day. As my Dad towed it I tried letting the clutch out in third gear to start it. Oh it would start just fine, but would not stay running for more than a few seconds. The tow to my Dad's is about 10 miles. I kept popping the clutch and starting it, trying to keep it running by feathering the throttle. Finally got it to run for the last 100 yards. Drove very roughly. Stalled just as I pulled into the driveway. Wouldn't restart. We had a fun few hours pushing it into the barn. As we were deciding the next course of action, I noticed the fuel bowl didn't look quite right. I guess we'll need to clean the tank. We did drain the old gas, but looks like there might be a little sludge in the bottom... [img]https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/24360/filename/bad gas.jpg[/img]

Any suggestions on gas tank cleaning?

First of all, get rig of all the old fuel. Alcohol will get rid of remaining water. Acetone and rough shaking if one can remove the tank would help. One can also put rocks in there while shaking.

Find a nearby source for non-alcohol fuel-airport, Maverick sells non-alcohol fuel in CO, may be a similar source in your area.

Good luck,

Ed

You're about to experience a lot more problems, including a very strong possibility of a bunch of valves seizing up in their guides which bends pushrods, breaks rocker arms, and bends valves if the pistons hit them. Never, ever, wake up an engine that's been sitting a long time without a thorough cleaning or replacement of the gas tank. I'd be reluctant to even attempt to start the engine again before checking all the valves for free movement. The gummy residue in stale gasoline has a nasty habit of depositing itself on valve stems, and then the first warmup and cool down of the engine turns it into some very effective glue. If it needs a valve job, there's no better time than now to pull the cylinder head and get that mess out of the guides! My favorite gas tank cleaning method is to strap the tank to a rear wheel of my tractor with ratchet straps, add a shovel or two of fine pea gravel, and bush hog a couple of acres of my farm. You could also tie the tank down in the bed of a pickup truck, half fill it with water and strong detergent, add some gravel, and drive around for a week or so. The trick is to use some sort of abrasive and/or soap and water to dislodge the crud inside of the tank. It's also a good way to locate the pinhole leaks that the crud has been plugging up. Good luck!
Jerry