Is the pulley a bolt-on type, or is it pressed onto the pump shaft? I have converted 216 and early 235 water pumps to 2-sheave configuration by machining away the outer part of the pulley with the single belt groove and adapting a 2-sheave pulley for a Ford 302 V8 pump to the bolt pattern of the 216 pump hub. Stovebolt GMC water pumps of any type have been extremely scarce and expensive in the past, but I seem to remember that somebody has started rebuilding them again. For a while, finding a GMC pump was sort of like searching for the Holy Grail! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I used to find double groove pulleys, both crank and wp, off of big trucks with an air brake compressor. Probably extinct now. Five years ago I made a serpentine prototype for a 235 but there was no interest so it's trashed. Would have helped with several blips like a/c and p/s.
Probably too big to fit under the thermostat housing. The Ford pulley is about 5" in diameter and it's a pretty close fit. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
So I went to Davis Speed shop and ordered a double grooved harmonic balancer, Brackets for AC (on passenger side), Power steering, and the alternator. Turns out I really didn’t need a water pump double groove pulley. Thank you everybody who gave me some advice.
Last edited by dtwbcs; 01/08/20202:45 AM. Reason: Stupid spell check
Danny 1958 GMC stepside GMC 302 six cylinder 3 speed OD trans
I just joined the site last night and I am having the same issues as everyone else that is looking to add a double groove crankshaft HB to a 235. I am working on the 1954 3600 pickup that I drove to high school back in the early to mid 70's and it has been in my family ever since, mostly stored out of the weather. It has the original wood in the bed and it is good enough shape that I hope to be able to run it through a planer and re-use it. Would be unique, I think, at car and truck shows to note it as the original bed wood.
I am wanting to add power steering to the old girl to make her more driver friendly, and A/C so that my former high school GF, whom I recently am re-acquainted with after 40 years and remembers being driven home from high school play practice in it, more comfortable riding to summer car shows in.
I like coilovers serpentine belt setup. Wondering what HB was used and if it could run P/S and A/C. Also, liked hotrodlincoln's post on fabricating an HB. I stopped in the local FLAPS yesterday with my HB in hand and told them what I was in search of. They came up with a 1970 250 double groove HB that will be there Tuesday. Looked like in the picture it didn't have enough length to seat on the crank snout without hitting the timing cover first. It had no specs as far as dimensions listed so I will look at it when it comes in.
I have had the engine rebuilt at a machine shop. It is a 235, 55-57 model with the long water pump, since the original engine ran out of oil 40+ years ago. I got a bulldog cam from Tom Langdon and had it installed during the rebuild, along with dual carbs and Fenton headers. Offenhauser dual carb intake from Speedway. Got an S-10 5 speed tranny to install and S-10 rear axle on super sliders installed.
Any advice from someone who can supply pertinent info on dual groove HB's would be greatly appreciated!
The 250 balancer can be adapted, but it needs the same shortening of the snout and cutting the seal surface back the same distance as the 6" diameter small block V8 balancer does. The hub has to be shortened about 1/4" or a little more to make the belt grooves line up properly. It's a fairly simple conversion for anyone with a lathe. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Jerry, Thanks for your quick reply. I was slow to respond due to not being able to log in officially until resetting my password. Still learning my way around here. I stopped in at FLAPS yesterday to check out the 250 HB and determined it was not gonna work for me since the hub measured too short to seat on the timing cover seal. Ordered a SMC HB from a 70's 350 and it will be in tomorrow, (Thu), morning. Hoping this will be what I need. It looked long enough in the photo, (again no quoted dimensions), to reach beyond the seal in the timing cover. Will need to order the correct pulleys to make everything I want to add line up if it all has the right dimensions. Any suggestions or warnings? Thanks
Jerry, Thanks for your quick reply. I was slow to respond due to not being able to log in officially until resetting my password. Still learning my way around here. I stopped in at FLAPS yesterday to check out the 250 HB and determined it was not gonna work for me since the hub measured too short to seat on the timing cover seal. Ordered a SMC HB from a 70's 350 and it will be in tomorrow, (Thu), morning. Hoping this will be what I need. It looked long enough in the photo, (again no quoted dimensions), to reach beyond the seal in the timing cover. Will need to order the correct pulleys to make everything I want to add line up if it all has the right dimensions. Any suggestions or warnings? Thanks
"Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead. Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either. Just leave me alone, you're starting to freak me out."
As I have stated (REPEATEDLY) there is no balancer other than an original equipment 216/235/261 part that will fit without modifications. I regret ever starting the thread years ago about how to fabricate a 2-sheave balancer out of new parts, because:
NO ONE PAYS THE LEAST BIT OF ATTENTION TO WHAT I SAY ON THE SUBJECT!
Yes it can be done. It requires some machining by someone with more than two brain cells to rub together. There are no shortcuts! BYE! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
jmoore, If your reply about Summit was meant for me, I don't think it won't work for my application, only for a 292. I am looking for a suitable replacement for a 1955-57 235.
Jerry, I certainly hope, (although it appears that I am), not the one to set you off. I just recently joined this site and have tried to learn as much as possible in the time preceding my becoming a member by reading many of your posts, as well as others. Still learning my way around but it seems there is there is a tremendous amount of information for someone with minimal experience on the site to absorb, but I am trying to get as much info as I can in the week that I have been here. I can understand your frustration with folks that you feel just aren't listening and catching on. Without being a member we are somewhat limited to photos, links, etc.
I picked up the 70's 350 HB today from the FLAPS and it appeared to be the correct dimensions, but when I got it home I don't know if it will work. Concerns are: the length of the crankshaft appears to be about 1.25" short of being flush with the face of the HB, (I guess I could fill it with washers and use loctite on the bolt), ordering the correct add on pulleys and hoping they fit without returning them several times, etc.
I am semi-retired and I only have a certain amount of time during the week to chase parts since I don't live in the city, and am getting very frustrated with the time I waste trying to find something that I can attempt to cobble together. I'm all about trying to do what I am able to do for myself and saving some coins in the process, but I'm thinking about just biting the bullet and purchasing what I need along with all the bracketry from a company that has done all the engineering in order to sell their product. With my limited time, resources and abilities it will probably save me time and money in the long run.
Jerry, I understand your frustration. It seems that many have a tendency to skip the important information previously posted in especially long threads. I observe that many lose track of what the OP was even asking in the first place. Important information gets lost, twisted and deluted to the point it becomes useless. People don’t answer specific questions asked of them as if it is a bother for them to respond. Many are just looking for validation of their idea and really don’t care to hear other procedures. Many forget that Stovebolt has a functional Search Engine or they just don’t want to read through all the back posts. In this particular case most are looking for a Double pulley HB that they can just buy at the flaps or local salvage yard. They can’t comprehend that it takes modifications to an existing HB to make it work. Some just don’t want to be bothered with taking a part to the machine shop and explaining to the machinist what needs to be done. So, please take a deep breath and jump back in when the urge strikes.
Martin '62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress) '47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project) ‘65 Chevy Biscayne (Emily) ‘39 Dodge Business Coupe (Clarence) “I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one! Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop! USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)
Yes, that looks like it would be a direct replacement for my needs. After my failed attempts to find alternate ways to fabricate one, (I don't have access to a lathe and the nearest machinist is 25 miles away), I contacted a company in WI about ordering all the brackets, pulleys as well as the harmonic balancer, I will need to install A/C, P/S, alternator and water pump for $750 or so. Thanks for your post but I am going to go this route and focus my attention on other parts of the project that I have more abilities to accomplish without spinning my wheels.
Martin, several of the dampers I have described, using all brand new parts which are readily available and inexpensive, are running on stovebolters' engines and have been giving trouble free service for several years. I am not interested in producing these balancers for sale, but I will gladly share the procedures involved, free of charge, to anyone willing to contact me AND DO IT MY WAY. It works. Now I'm on to other pursuits and doing the same old thing over and over bores me. Ditto for the crankshaft snout threading device I developed. It works, but I don't run a job shop machine company, blindly turning out thousands (or even dozens) of identical parts. I'm also glad to share the details of that project with anyone capable of following simple instructions. That "Damper Dudes" balancer will work, but what they put in the small print is that there is an outrageous core charge in addition to their already inflated purchase price. Jesse James had to use a gun to rob people! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
That "Damper Dudes" balancer will work, but what they put in the small print is that there is an outrageous core charge in addition to their already inflated purchase price. Jesse James had to use a gun to rob people! Jerry
As usual, Jerry got that "detail" right.
Damper Dudes will rebuild your core at that listed price. However, f you do not have a double-groove core, I think the core charge is $600.00
They have another double-groove pulley (1/2" belt only) to the appropriate spec (but a more "modern" appearance): $177.00 (no core charge) plus $16.00 shipping
The simplest way to get a double groove damper on an early stovebolt engine is to modify a 230/250 balancer so the belts line up. Those balancers are available everywhere for less than $100.00 each. The snout MUST be machined to match the stovebolt hub dimensions. That's probably what the D/D "economy" balancer is. They're still committing highway robbery with that one! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
The simplest way to get a double groove damper on an early stovebolt engine is to modify a 230/250 balancer so the belts line up. Those balancers are available everywhere for less than $100.00 each. The snout MUST be machined to match the stovebolt hub dimensions. That's probably what the D/D "economy" balancer is. They're still committing highway robbery with that one! Jerry
Yes, Highway Robbery for someone who can do machining? I cannot.
But, I doubt that I could find a machinist that would do it for $100 (plus $100 for the core that is available anywhere - please post a link)?
What would be a fair price for the machining?
Plus: - shipping of the core to the machinist (if the machinist is not local) - shipping the finished pulley back to me (if the machinist is not local)
If I post an Ebay link the PC Patrol will zap it right away. The machining procedure takes less than 30 minutes for a first-time attempt, maybe half that once the guy doing the job gets a little practice under his belt. It's two facing cuts and one diameter cut, plus a little polishing of the seal surface with emery cloth.
Here's one of several: Search "250 Chevy Harmonic Balancer"
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
In my neighborhood, I could find half a dozen machine shops who would be glad to do that little project for $50.00 or less. "Your mileage may vary". With just a little more machining time, with the same setup as the hub modifications, I can widen the 3/8" belt grooves to accommodate belts 1/2" wide, without compromising the integrity of the balancer. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Wes, I've been the "voice crying in the wilderness" on lots of subjects on the Stovebolt site for a lot of years. What seems to be very obvious to me after 50-something years of working on these old rigs just flies right past some folks, regardless of my repeated efforts to explain my ideas. Yes, it gets frustrating, but I'm a stubborn old coot who will probably keep on trying. Occasionally, somebody listens! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I don't know if this matters anymore but I made some calls. BHJ will make you one with serpentine pulley on it. It will take 6 weeks at a cost of $600. Talk to Chris if interested. They would normally be $525 but since it's their first one there is a $75 set up charge. They made me an SFI damper with serpentine pulley for my blown 292. Mine was $1000 but I had to pay the engineering fees. The next guys will be cheaper. Not for everybody but I thought I would put it out there. 6 rib is a stock pulley but they can do an 8.
Jerry, No worries, I am very new to this, not to say I have no mechanical skills as I have overhauled several automotive and tractor engines. I changed the front axle to a 3" drop from Sid, and added disc brakes. Tore all the old suspension and hangers off the 3/4 ton rearend, fabricated and installed new leaf spring hangers, super sliders and an S-10 rearend. Never have been a machinist, though. When I first noticed the double groove HB forums on here and saw your post about you maybe going to have them available, or at least the plans, I couldn't wait to talk to you! Here was someone I admired for figuring out what so many of us were looking for, at a reasonable price. When I tried to click on those links from a great time ago, they didn't come up. I am the kind of guy who needs to have a visual image to comprehend something that is new to me. It takes more than words or a short description for me to grasp the idea that seems so obvious to the person who is trying to make it understood, when they have probably done it practically in their sleep. I can appreciate your efforts. So for me to realize that I don't have the tools and know how to do this part of the build, it will be easier and much more time saving to get all the things that I want to get to the end result of having A/C, P/S, alternator and water pump, all at one place rather than trying to fab them myself. Kinda wanna get this thing on the road before I am too old to really enjoy it. You call yourself an "old coot" but you probably don't have many years on me, if any...I'm 63. Wes
