The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 235 won't start

the truck was running ok, started a little tough, but started. I replaced the generator with a 6 volt alternator, and it rear well too. I went to start if after being idle of few days, and. would not start. I replaced the battery with an Optima 6 volt, put on a 1/0. original cable and still won't start. I check and coil has power, I seem to have spark, the fuel filter l looks to have plenty of fuel, battery is fully charged- I am stumped. Starter is a little slows but better with a new cable adn battery- could it. be the starter??

thanks an any advice.

Will it crank but not start? Or will it not crank? Two different situations. I had problems with my rebuilt 235, spark but no run, turned out to be a bad condenser (after trying everything else). I gave a spark but not enough to start. Check it out, it's a really cheap and easy fix.

Tim

this has been double-posted - one (here) location is enough

What size are your ground cables/straps (1/0 (0) or 2/0 (00) are good)?

Make sure your ground strap/cables connection points are good:
- battery to frame
- frame to clutch housing (I connect this one to a starter mounting bolt).

Cover all shiney/cleaned connection points with copper-impregnated anti-seize "grease" (sold in most auto-parts-stores in tubes or small jars.

“Starter is a little slows but better with a new cable adn battery- could it. be the starter??”

Check out your battery cable-sizes first – these have to be good no matter what other things might need to be checked-out/tended-to?

And, they might be your problem/problems.

Do the easy and necessary checks first.

Lee, just a couple thoughts to add to the good advice above. I see you're in a part of the country where the temp's can get a bit "nippy". Is the truck in a heated shop when you're trying to start it? If not, a 6v system has to be in Good condition to start if temps are in the teens (or colder). Everything has to be pretty much perfect for it to fire off and run. I worked through several winters in North Dakota and when we'd get a warmup from -30 or so it almost felt like summer when the thermometer hit 10 above.

I've never ran a Optima 6 volt battery but I seem to recall they require a special charging technique when really ran down. I'd put a charger on it and make sure it's fully charged. Of course a voltmeter will tell the story too.

Last of all, if the above fails to get it started, I'd give it a whiff of starting fluid. Doesn't take a lot and too much can cause damage. Once running, check timing, and go on a test drive to see if any rough running gremlins pop up and let the tuning proceed.

Good Luck,
RonR

Lee, check here.

"I've never ran a Optima 6 volt battery but I seem to recall they require a special charging technique when really ran down. I'd put a charger on it and make sure it's fully charged."

If an Optima battery has been run down, an easy recommended technique is:
- connect a 6V lead-acid battery in parallel
- connect the 6v charger ti gte Optima battery
- if it is an automatic charge, charge until done/fully-charged

Here is Optima Tech Tip(s) on: "HOW TO RESUSCITATE A DEEPLY DISCHARGED AGM BATTERY"

update

1. new Optima battery
2. now 1/0 positive cable
3.good ground from battery to frame and starter to block
4. starter hardly turns over and then turns over ok for a bit, but slow, and then does not turn over.
5. fuel filter bowl is 1/2 full - which is ok
6.i have spark- if the condenser is bad will I have spark? I changed the condenser less than month ago
7. my next step is to pull the starter- I have a replacement I got at NAPA, it this the right step ??????

What's the cranking speed like with the ignition turned off? A slow-turning starter draws a huge amount of current due to not enough "counter-EMF" being induced in the starter windings. That, in turn, drops the battery terminal voltage low enough that the ignition system can't produce a hot enough spark to fire the plugs, even if a tiny spark is visible while cranking. A properly-charged battery should be able to crank the engine for at least 15 seconds with the ignition disabled without the voltage at the battery posts dropping below 4.5 volts.

Virtually all "slow crank" complaints with a 6 volt system are the result of loose or dirty connections, and/or too-small cables. There's no such thing as having too big a battery cable on a 6V system. Run the ground cable all the way to the starter housing- - - - -the "ground strap to the frame with a second conductor to the starter" is a disaster waiting to happen.
Jerry

I will test it tomorrow - thanks.

it ran ok when the weather was warmer but when the temperature when down, the starting trouble started, even though I replaced the battery and hot cable ( Optima adn 1/0 cable).

what size ground cable?

At least a #1 or #0. Some people recommend 00, but they're a little difficult to get a good crimp on the terminals on the ends. I make mine from arc welder cable which has hundreds of strands of very fine wire and is very flexible. I've also got a swaging tool that I use with a 3-lb. hammer and an anvil to crimp the terminals on both ends. The cable, ring terminals, and battery post terminals are all available on Ebay, or any welding supply can probably make up custom cables in any length and size you need.
Jerry

so to be clear, ground from battery to bolt holding starter, not to the frame?

Eliminating that frame to engine cable reduces the circuit by two connections. Any extra connection point is a potential source for a dirty or loose circuit that causes slow cranking. Since the starter draws more current than any other component, it makes sense to provide it with the shortest path back to the battery. Yes, connect the ground cable to either a starter attaching bolt, or one of the bolts that hold the bellhousing to the block. Then run smaller ground wires from the engine to the body and frame to provide a ground path for headlights, dash instruments, etc. It's hard to have "too many" good grounds!

The only reason GM used the 2-cable setup was cost savings- - - - - two short braided cables cost less than one long heavy cable.
Jerry

I am putting a 1/0 cable from the battery to the starter housing , eliminating the braided cable from the battery to the frame and kept. the braided cable from the starter to the frame. will that work.

That should work great. Just to be sure you have a good ground path for lights, etc. unbolt both ends of the braided ground and scrub the connectors and the places they attach with a wire brush. Even a little resistance can cause dim headlights, poor charging system performance, and other hard to find gremlins. I remember one situation where a mid-1970's Plymouth would spike the alternator voltage to over 17 volts anytime the brake lights came on- - - - -cleaning the area where the voltage regulator bolted to the body and running a ground wire from the body to the engine solved the problem! The car had already had two alternators and a battery changed before the problem got to my shop. Parts and labor to fix it were less than $10.00!
Jerry

Just a few thoughts:
If the ground strap is old, it could be corroded internally. I had this problem on a tractor I had. Even after converting to 12 volts, it was a pain to start. When I replaced both cables, it would crank so fast that it would make oil pressure!
Another thing to check for a slow starter is the switch contacts on top of the starter. I had to replace the one on my '46 last year. It was getting so it didn't want to crank and a new switch was all it needed.
My final thought is that the tractor had gotten so it would only start if it was towed nearly half a mile. Turns out the valves need to be adjusted. Who knew? Not me.:)
There's not much to go wrong with these systems, but a few things often get overlooked.

thanks folks, I appreciate the input!

Ed, that's a good point about those flat braided ground straps. The crimp connection between the braid and the ring terminal on the end is subject to corrosion that can't be cleaned nor seen readily. Using a low-reading voltmeter to monitor the voltage drop from end to end of a cable while cranking can be a real eye-opener!
Jerry

further update
update:

1. new Optima battery
2. now 1/0 positive cable
3. fuel filter bowl is 1/2 full - which is ok
4. new 1/o ground directly from new, fully charged Optima 6 volt battery
5. `I have spark, but turns very very slow, and sometimes not catching.
6. my next move is to remove the starter
\
keep in mind, it was running just fine, then it got colder, and troubles began

is there a way to test the starter in the vehicle to see if its bad or is removing the starter the next step? I have never done it but looks pretty simple.


thanks

Do you have a battery load tester capable of putting a 300 amp load or more on the battery? When I'm diagnosing a starter I monitor the battery terminal voltage while the engine is cranking, and then load the battery to the same voltage and measure the amperage draw. A 6 volt starter in good condition should crank the engine at normal speed with approximately a 200-250 amp current draw. HAS ANYONE DONE A LOAD TEST ON THE "NEW" BATTERY?

Since most people don't have a heavy current capacity carbon pile load tester, cranking voltage is the only test that might give a clue about the condition of the starter. The battery terminals shouldn't drop below about 4.5 volts during cranking unless there's a problem with the starter, or the engine is almost seized up for some reason. (Rusty cylinder walls, etc.) Try spinning the engine with the spark plugs removed to see what speed you can get that way.

Have you done the 15 second cranking test with the ignition disabled like I suggested? Sometimes I think I'm shouting down an empty well because people tend to ignore my advice and make wild-donkey guesses. Maybe 60 years' experience at diagnosing electrical systems doesn't count!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeBb-gTjWKA

Jerry

next I am doing the starter test with ignition off. thanks.

I just tried the ignition off test and cranking with ignition off, fully charged battery. voltag on battery was 5.6 volts. could is still be the starter???

OK- - - -now we're making some progress. That's way too HIGH a voltage reading for a starter that's under cranking load. Was the cranking speed normal, or slow? If the cranking was slow, there's a high resistance circuit inside the starter. Remove the starter and dismantle it. The first thing to check is the mechanical push button that the foot pedal linkage operates. It's attached to the starter housing with two screws. There's a big copper contact at the stud where the battery + cable attaches, and another one that connects to the field coils and armature brushes. The push button connects these two contacts with a big copper washer. Burned contacts there can cause low current draw, or there could be loose or burned connections inside the starter.

Unless you find problems with the bolt-on switch, it's probably time to rebuild or replace the starter. Be sure to get a 6 Volt starter if you replace it, since there's a gear drive and flywheel tooth difference in 6 and 12 volt units. There's at least a possibility you've got a 12 volt starter installed. The quickest way to tell the difference is to measure the diameter of the armature shaft- - - - -12 volt starters have a 1/2" diameter shaft- - - -6V armatures measure 5/8". If there's a Delco ID label on the starter, a 6V label will have black lettering. 12V labels are red.

If you've got a 12 volt starter, the next thing to check is the number of teeth on the flywheel. 6V flywheels have 139 teeth. 12V flywheel ring gears have 168 teeth. a 6V starter WILL NOT work on a 168 tooth flywheel- - - - -there will be lots of noise, and rapid wear and/or breakage of teeth on both the flywheel and the starter drive.
Jerry

Get some help and try push starting it. If it starts then I would replace the starter. Convert to 12 volts, read the Tech Tips on how to do it. Simple and if you use the 6 volt starter (12 volts won’t hurt it) it will spin plenty fast to start the engine. jmo

Hello MontanaLee. How fast was the engine turning over on your last test?

I really don't have any new advice for you. BUT, I would suggest that you write each recommendation given to you on a piece of paper (Particularly Mr. Lincolns). then write what you did to correct that problem. Then what was the result. Kind of like a checklist... this is to ensure that you didn't miss a step.

How cold is it when you are trying to start the truck? Is the truck outside or inside? do you have the capability to warm up the engine before you try to start it? (taking care to not burn down your garage!!!!)

If you want a 6v system (for old times sake, etc), do not give up and switch to 12v (just to get/have/obtain dependable starting).

A properly set-up/maintained 6v system will start dependably every time.

update for the 17th-

on top of new 1/0 cable to the starter from the battery. I just now replaced the starter with one form NAPA ( 6 volt)
new Optima battery
I have spark
I have fuel

still turns over slowly and does not start

suggestions???

new condenser?
new points?
new rotor?
new coil?


am I wide open.
]thanks for having in there with me

Run a 1/0 cable (or heavy ground strap) from the battery to a starter mounting bolt (or, run a temporary heavy starter-cable from the battery to a starter bolt).

I ran a new 1/0 cable from the new optima battery to the new starter ( lower mountain bolt) . also ran a 1/0 fabric covered cable from positive terminal on new battery to new starter.

What is the cranking speed with the spark plugs removed? It should spin noticeably faster with the compression relieved. If not, there's too much drag somewhere- - - -rusty cylinder walls, tight bearings, too-thick oil, etc. What temperature is the engine? If the truck is parked outside in very cold weather, it might be necessary to do a 12 volt jump start, but I've seen lots of 6V vehicles start reliably even in sub-zero weather. Did you load test that "new" battery? It should deliver 250-300 amps for 15 seconds without dropping the terminal voltage below 4.5 volts.
Jerry

will check cranking speed with plug removed tomorrow. oil probably needs changing bit is only been in the 30's not terrible cold. The truck is inside but not heated. I will look at a 12 volt jump tomorrow as well. I did load test the battery before I replaced the starter and with ignition off, voltage was 5.6 volts while cranking. How best to jump start with 12 volt.

You'll get a pretty healthy flash from the booster cable as you attach the last connection because of the mismatch in battery voltage. I always make the ground cable connection last, as far away from the battery as possible to prevent any danger of getting a hydrogen gas explosion. Don't crank with the 12 volts attached for more than 10 seconds or so to prevent any damage to the coil, points, etc. Disconnect the 12V jumper as soon as the engine starts.

One thing I've done while waking up a 6V engine after a long sleep is to install a 12V coil temporarily and use a 12V battery to do the initial startup, run-in and tune up. Just disconnect the Battery wire at the voltage regulator to prevent doing any damage to the charging system, and leave the lights and other 6V accessories turned off. Once it's starting and running reliably, you can swap back to 6V operation.

is it important to turn the engine over with spark plugs removed, before I jump start it with a 12 volt battery?

to be clear jump start with 12 volt in lieu of removing the plugs to see how it turns over. keep in mind it ran very well 2 weeks ago, just a little sluggish starting but fired off, now it turns very very very slow.

The test with the spark plugs removed is important, because jump starting with 12 volts can hide a tight rotating assembly. If the pistons and/or bearings are too tight you really don't want to make the problem worse by forcing the engine to turn with high starter torque.

We're swimming upstream at this point because apparently some preliminary steps like pre-soaking the cylinders with lightweight oil or Diesel fuel, etc. apparently was not done prior to trying to start the engine. I usually spend a week or more checking the basic mechanical condition of an engine before I make any attempt to start it. That includes lots of pre-oiling, soaking the cylinders and valve guides with something like PB Blaster or KROIL, compression testing, spinning the engine at no load with the spark plugs removed, etc. Actually making the engine fire and run on its own is the dessert course of a meal- - - - -not the appetizer!
Jerry

what is better KROIL OR pB Blaster

hmmm . . .

That is a lot like asking "which religion is better"?

hmmm . . .

That is a lot like asking "which religion is better"?

links to comparison tests

I've used KROIL for over 40 years- - - - -don't see a reason to change now. Besides- - - -it's a Tennessee product, made about 60 miles North of my place. I'm also 30-something miles from Lynchburg, home of Jack Daniel's! Guess what's in the liquor cabinet?

www.kanolabs.com

Jerry