The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 crate motor by Jasper Engines

When I bought 'Mater Jr., I was told that its engine was a 261. It had a foil sticker from Jasper Engines on the block, above the generator, but unfortunately, the build number was illegible.

As I started learning about my truck, and using the information available here on Stovebolt.com, I discovered that it was not a 261. Judging by the casting numbers, the engine block is a 1959 235, with 848 heads. My research indicates that this block/head combination is very desirable.

Armed with that info, I called Jasper Engines to see if I could find out what the particulars of the lifters, cam, etc were. I was also interested to discover if my oddball Carter YF carburetor was part of the Jasper package, as it had no identifying marks on it (discussed in a previous thread). The folks at Jasper wouldn't talk to me unless I had the build number off the foil tag. Since it's an aftermarket crate motor, I was at least hoping that they could give me an idea of what engine packages were offered at that time. Nope.

The good:
• Overall, the engine seems to be in good mechanical shape.
• No cross-contamination of coolant and oil.
• Good compression on all six cylinders.
• No crud build-up inside the valve cover or rocker arm area.
• The engine starts and idles fine.
• Valves are adjusted.

The not as good:
• Carb runs rich. The metering rod does not bottom out like it's supposed to. This YF variant doesn't have an adjusting screw, so you bend the tab to adjust. It would require more tab bending than I want to do. I measured the metering rod, just to be certain it was the right one.
• The distributor has some play in it. I can watch the timing wander with the timing light. The distributor has a zirc fitting rather than a grease cup, so I don't know if it's an aftermarket distributor that was part of the Jasper package.
• Intermittent miss on #6 at idle. I can adjust the points enough to get #6 to fire reliably, but then other cylinders misfire...I attribute this to the worn distributor.
• Slight oil seep at front main seal. I consider this to be a part of my underside corrosion inhibitor system.

The truck runs fine around town, but I'm hoping to improve highway power and fuel economy. I want to start by replacing the present distributor with an HEI from Langdon's. I would also like to do something different with fuel control. Split headers and dual exhaust would be a lower priority.

I'm interested to hear what the brain trust might suggest.

-Kevin

Your over-rich condition is chrome plated. Use that tiny air cleaner for a skeet target and get one that will flow enough air for the engine to use the fuel it's getting. That thing is doing the same as running with the choke pulled out about halfway.

There's supposed to be a spring and a plastic thrust button in the hole for the grease fitting or grease cup that holds the distributor shaft snug against the housing. That will eliminate most of the shaft wobble that's messing with your timing. I modify distributors to use a Torrington needle bearing just under the centrifugal advance that eliminates all the wobble at the points. It's a simple machining procedure, and it's a lot less expensive than paying for a HEI distributor.

Unless you can figure out a way to flow more mixture through the ridiculously restrictive cylinder head ports, nothing you do to "improve" the intake or exhaust will make much difference. Dual exhausts are nice to look at, and with a set of free-flowing mufflers you'll have every neighbor in a 2-block radius looking for ammo for his shotgun, but noise is not power. Have fun!
Jerry

Jerry,

Good info!

That's the air cleaner that came on the truck. I'll get something more suitable.

I recall that when I was looking at the distributor, the spring, and plastic button were gone. All that was there was the fitting. I read online somewhere that was a common modification, and that you just have to keep greasing the fitting periodically. I've put grease in it a couple of times, but it doesn't seem to help the play. I'll may have to replace the distributor.

I kind of like that the truck is rather quiet...it makes me stealthy right up until I turn the red beacon on! I agree that the exhaust is more of a 'joyride' item than practical upgrade...that's why it's a low priority for me. Plus, I really don't feel like having to plumb heating to my intake manifold. On a related note, my VW's use exhaust, and my Alfa Romeo uses coolant from the radiator to heat the intake plenums. I never really understood why, until I started reading on Stovebolt.com about intake heating. Now I'm smarter all the way around!

-Kevin

Why not just put the spring and thrust button back in? Any small compression spring that will fit the hole will do, and round plastic or Teflon material is available on Ebay dirt cheap. It's not always necessary to throw a wheelbarrow full of money at these old rigs! The original owners certainly didn't.

Just to be sure, the spring and Bakelite cushion are actually behind the grease fitting. So you would have had to take the fitting off and dug around to determine if yours was still there. If you are certain it’s not, you should replace it. I used a piece of Delrin from a rod that I picked up on eBay and cut it down to fit. Deve from this site found a hardware store nylon washer that fit. Removal of the spring and spacer/cushion was not a modification. There was a reason why those parts were installed and It’s the same reason why you want to put them back if in fact yours are missing - they help with the stability of the shaft, lessen the wobble as the distributor wears.

I did take the fitting off and dig around; there was nothing else in there.

From threads I've read elsewhere on this site, the grease cup and spring/button are the original method. One would have to grease the cup every 5k miles or so, and the spring/button would press against the grease. Apparently, some would take those items out, and install a zirc fitting, relying on the ball valve to maintain grease pressure when filled from a grease gun. Not sure if this was done because the cap was lost, or they didn't want to keep refilling the cup.

Of course, grease guns seldom contain the correct type of grease for this application. I have a gun with actual cup grease...hit-and-miss engines frequently use this same lubrication method.

The nylon part is available at Lowes; I can 3D print in delrin to make any part I need.

All good info.

Thanks!

-Kevin

I think that's what I'm going to do...put those parts back in. Is it also possible to get rid of the fitting, and return to the grease cup and its cap?

Thanks.

-Kevin

Kevin ,

If you need a new GM NOS grease cup & fitting

( 4 ) are currently available GM NOS on ebay .

Go to ebay & type in the search box...........805579 .

The GM grease cups hardly ever show up on ebay .

I consider them a rare part & very hard to find .

Here's the cup & fitting that's on ebay .

$25.00 & Free shipping .

Anyone that needs a nice new rust free Cup & Fitting.........here's your chance !

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/Bb41ghjp/grease1.jpg


Here's a GM # 805579 that I purchased years ago .

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/8PThBCWG/805579-Dist-CUP-GM-NOS-3.jpg

&

https://i.postimg.cc/PfQDxk7R/GM-805579-Cup-and-Fitting.jpg

&

https://i.postimg.cc/7YP2JW8Y/Distributor-Grease-Cup-GM-805579.jpg

&

https://i.postimg.cc/NfP59Gkp/Grease-Cup-1955293-GM-NOS-Old-GM-number-805579.jpg


I see some 5/16 " diameter BAKELITE rods on ebay .

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/fLVFBK0G/Bakelite-Rod.jpg

I wonder if the bakelite rods on ebay could be modified to be a replacement plug

since the GM plugs are no longer available ?

The original PLUG had a FIBRE backing with a total thickness of 1/8 "

so, the actual thickness of the bakelite was pretty thin .

The plug was like a sandwich glued together .


I have some GM fibre starter washers .

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/htYHk6bC/Commutator-Fibre-Washers-GM-NOS.jpg


I'd like to come up with an original type plug using a bakelite rod on ebay

and some FIBRE from one of these washers to create a copy of the

original GM sandwich...........any suggestions ?

What kind of glue would one use ?


I'd like for someone to come up with a workable spring replacement .

The original seems to be a pretty strong spring .


Dragsix , Do you know the GM part # of the spacer / cushion ?

Original Photo posted by Dragsix

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/kMK9CJBk/GM-805579.jpg


George
'54 3600

George, why would you need glue for the bakelite plug and fibre washer, it would be under spring pressure sandwiched together?

Jerry, would you happen to have the number for the needle bearings? I have a distributor in need of just that. I was contemplating a bushing, but that sounds better.

I will check and see if I have a number for that part. My gut tells me no but let me look through my literature and double check.

Mike ,

If you go to Pre '68 Dave's web site

Here :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7vPj-S1b-vE/UsCMTz8FaJI/AAAAAAAADxU/Vvb7JoMEEqA/s1600/dist+005.JPG

The spacer/cushion is not shown .

I kinda think that cushion/spacer in your photo came from another similar application .

I can't find that part in any of the GM parts manuals .

It's not in any of my old chevy distributor's .

Mike , question.......does the plug you have appear to be made of one solid piece

of material ?

Could it be described as a solid piece of bakelite ?

or

Does it appear to be a piece of bakelite with a fibre backing meaning

two materials that are actually sandwiched together ?


George
'54 3600

Here is an illustration of parts.

It looks like it was/is a felt "wick"?

The diameter and thickness of the felt wick changed in later years.

Does anyone have GM documentation stating the composition/material of the 216/235/261 felt wick?

Are you saying that leather was to ride on the distributor shaft?
From what I can can gather, the whole purpose of the entire assembly goes like this:
-spring/hard plug puts pressure on the side of the distributor shaft to prevent the points from wobbling as the shaft wears in its bore over time.
-the grease cup is there to hold tension on the spring/hard plug, and provide an easy way to see that there is lube where the hard plug rides on the shaft. I don't see where there would be a need for a seal at the hard plug area since the grease needs to be able to get to the hard plug.and distributor shaft.
There is a leather seal on the rim of the cap which keeps the grease from squishing out when you turn the cup cap in every 5-10 thousand miles.

Carl,

Look at this info on turning & refilling the CUP ..



I have ( 2 ) nos GM Cups # 805579

They do not have a leather seal .

Is this leather seal a myth or someone's add on idea ?

I'd like to know the GM part # for this leather cup seal .


George
'54 3600

Its hard to see, but if you look at the photo I posted of the parts, look at the stem where the threads are for the cap and you will see a ring of threads that look darker then the other threads on the stem. Its actually a little piece of leather, a ring of leather (with threads from the cap in the leather) that acts like a seal for the cap. The later metal replacement stems don't have that little ring of leather.

As for the little disc, its not actually a plug. Grease needs to be able to get around it so it is actually small then the id of the stem port. Its entirely possible that the disc was a piece of bakelite with a piece of fiber bonded to the bakelite. I have never seen a nos disc so by the time I get a distributor apart, its either worn to the nub or missing entirely. Like I said, I used a piece of delrin rod and had a friend chuck it up on a lathe had machine a few down to the same diameter of a worn out disc. The finished piece is on the right in the photo. Also, later NOS 2403 distributors came from Delco Remy with plastic stems and cups, and those same plastic cups and stems were sold over the counter. The plastic parts also did not have the little ring of leather.

Below is an nos 2403 replacement distributor with the plastic stem and cap. It’s discolored but you can see no leather ring. The replacement plastic caps and stems are also below, same deal, no leather seal.

I misspoke when I said bakelite. I meant the fitting for the cap.

-Kevin

Go back to that post and edit it for posterity of the search function for searching bolters. That would be the peachy thing to do.

They seem to be referring to the entire assembly as a "wick" in one of your attachments. The bakelite part itself is referred to as "plug 2.363" in the parts diagram which you posted.
Felt would last about 7 revolutions in that application.
Carl

I am thinking poorly tonight, Carl - my house water pump stopped working.

Which link shows 2.363 as your describe?

I see 2.363 in the later parts book - distributor mounting, not the grease cup parts?

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/1929_57chevyparts/57cmpc0221.htm

It is on the first of your three attachments. The one with pictures.

I see 2.363 in my third attachment - the 1929-1957 Parts Catalog Page:

2.363 BUSHING GASKET CLAMP, Distributor Mounting for 1955 and later 8 cylinder engines?

2.363 is not even shown in earlier Master Parts Catalog/Books (no 8 cylinder engines)?

As usual, Carl, I think I am in my own twilight zone on this topic.
I find it helps when I talk/mumble to myself a lot.

Also, I think this thread at-first was referring to the "make-up" of the "cup" that has the screw-on metal "cap".

I am referring to the spring and the tip that push against the distributor shaft. In particular, the makeup/composition of the "tip".

My GM parts catalog goes to 59. If that little bakelite disc is listed I cant find it.

Thanks, Mike

If someone who has such a disc, it would be nice to GM documentation listing such a disc.

Here's are two guesses:
- maybe the disc is listed in later Master Parts Manuals?
- maybe such a disc was used in later distributors, and, it fits in the older distributors?

As for a nos cup with the leather seal, this guy still has one or two NOS for sale. Look up Item No. 253388488715

Mike ,

Look under GM Group - 2.364 - Part # 1869303


George
'54 3600

I have dug out a number of those disks which ride on the distributor shaft in 216s and a '53 235 with Powerglide engine, and they look like hard plastic reinforced with fiber in criss cross fashion.

George got it!

Per my 1951 Parts Book,

2.364 1940-51 (may go higher, this is where my book stops), ALL....Plug, grease cup hole (5/16" dia x 1/8"- fibre)....1869303

This part is not in my 1959 Parts Book...the Spring and Cup are there, just not the Plug.

Mike B

Thanks very much, Mike (and, thanks to all who persisted in this identification/discussion).

Can-you/will-you take a photo/scan of that page, and post it here?

1947 Parts Manual

Group 2.364 - Part # 1869303

PIC

https://i.postimg.cc/02QsrG14/1947-Parts-Manual.jpg

1869303 Grease Cup Plug


G.

As Jerry suggested, I installed a larger 9" dia air cleaner. I then re-adjusted the idle mixture and idle speed screws. It certainly runs better at 70-80mph than it did before. I still have that metering rod issue in the carb, but the larger air cleaner seems to have helped a little with the rich mixture.

I guess the small air cleaner that came on it is more applicable to a multi-carb setup.

I put some more grease into the distributor's fitting. Of course, no change to the drifting timing. Now I have to decide whether to pursue refurbishing the existing distributor, or going HEI after all.

Putting grease in the fitting will not stabilize the shaft if that is actually the issue. You need the spring and disc to apply pressure to the shaft. Put an ad in the classifieds and se if anyonehas a junk distributor that has those parts and swap them in and see where you are at.

As for those little air cleaners, no, they are not even useful for a multicarb set up.

I'd like to replace my rigid vacuum line with a hose. I need to figure out what size fitting the Carter YF takes, and if I can find one with a barb end.

I also found that my manifold gasket is leaking at the top of #5 cylinder. I've got to get that fixed before the Hot Rod Hundred run.

-Kevin

I really learned something from this thread. All this time (40+years) I thought the distributor cup assembly was just to grease the shaft bushing and I've turned it tighter a quarter turn every time I changed the oil, filling it up once in a while with long fiber wheel bearing grease. I had no idea it stablized the shaft. Maybe I better check it all out as I'm running the truck about 500 miles a week loaded over our mountains. I can't afford a breakdown just now. I have a spare distributor to check out too.

Kevin,

When you install the manifolds, tighten both manifolds to the head before you tighten the manifolds together, handy to use brass nuts also.

Ed

1ton tommy, just to fill in a few mor details, there are no bushings in a 235 distributor. Which makes keeping the grease clean and full, the spring and disc in place, and a turn now and again that much more important. Remember, the engineering on these motors goes back to the 1920s so no sense trying to out guess the engineers. They apparently knew what they were doing given how many of these motors are running. Like the energizer bunny.

Ed,

Thanks for the reminder; good info! I got the manifold gaskets replaced this evening without incident.

-Kevin

I tried a female 1/8" pipe thread fitting on the vacuum port of the Carter YF. It went on, and made about 1/4 turn before the threads bound up. So, the size seems right, but the threads are different.

I spent time this afternoon at different auto parts and hardware stores trying to find something that works. I didn't expect this to be difficult.

-Kevin

The extensive discourse on distributor greasing did not fill me with confidence. I proceeded to order and install the HEI setup from Langdon's.

Wow!

What a difference it made! The intermittent miss at idle with #6 has completely disappeared. The idle is very stable (the timing is rock-steady), and the exhaust pulses at the tailpipe are very even. I didn't realize how poorly the truck was idling before; it has never sounded this good.

The suggested initial timing of 10°-18° (with vacuum advance disconnected) seemed a little aggressive with my oddball Carter YF at WOT, so I have backed it off a bit. I'll refine the timing as I continue to drive it.

I haven't yet swapped to the recommended Champion RJ18YC6 spark plugs; I may get to that tomorrow evening.

With the new HEI working well, manifold gaskets replaced, and having rebuilt my generator this past weekend, I think I'm all ready for the Hot Rod Hundred in St. Louis next weekend!

-Kevin

I participated in the Hot Rod Hundred run in St. Louis this weekend with 'Mater Jr.. It was a 'Hot Rod Three-Hundred' for me...98 miles to the start, 112 miles on the run, and 92 miles home. The 235 ran very well.

I took I-70 and I-64 to the start point, driving 70-75mph the whole way. The 'Hundred' part of the day was on back roads and secondary highways at 45-60mph, and the drive home was on highways of 55-70mph. Across the board, I have a 3mpg increase in fuel economy, with greater power margin at interstate speeds. I'm guessing this is a result of the better air cleaner, and HEI installation (I swapped the plugs too).

The HEI instructions from Langdon's says to set the initial timing at 10°-18° BTDC. After adjusting the carb idle speed and mixture settings, I have the timing at 15° BTDC. That gave pretty good performance for the HR3H run. I don't know if 3° more is going to make any difference.

My power curve seems to flatten out above 3/4 throttle. I'm not sure if this is normal, or an effect of my Carter YF woes. I shouldn't complain too loudly, as it runs pretty well overall, I just think it should be better.

-Kevin