The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Thinking of a Pacer IFS swap?

DONT! Unless you want to work! I got mine home yesterday it did only cost me 150 bucks. Its out of a '77 model it has drum breaks which I didnt realize til the old junk yard guy did all that work cutting it out. :mad: Guess I felt bad that I didnt check that out first before he did all that work. So I bought it any way. There is a lot of extra metal I have to cut off were the engine mounts and the frame attaches. I am goung to try and see if I can swap the spindals out for a newer model Camero I think they had steering racks. Spindals are pretty much the same arnt they? they just bolt to the ball joints. I think I can make it work going to take a lot of work. If I can get it to work and it drives streight down the road Ill be one bad dude!

Mallard a lot of guys got hooked on a couple of articles written on how great that frontend is. I have personal driven them and cut several out. Unless your truck drives so bad ..bad pins No brakes ,broken springs.The straight axle with a stabalizer bar will drive just as well. A lot of guys really thought they would also get a truck that rides a little lower.In fact if the a-frames a set to were the geom is correct it will ride about 1/2 higher than most stock trucks. The next problem is parts.The author will swear up and down that you can get what you need...well in fact the stuff is getting more and more expensive and can not allways be had anymore.(we waited 5 days for a set of rotors about a year ago) There is a lot of extra junk on the frontend to be removed and the rack needs some work also.So......at 150 bucks there are a lot of suckers out ther that still beleive its the greatest frontend around .Put it up for sale and it will be gone.I used to throw them away,now i get 300 bucks for them.(i warn everbody i sell them to it is NOT the way to go) The racks are not allways avail either and most times they send your rack out to get repaired(NAPA stuff is garbage ) maybe cut you losses and sell it. Sorry to those guys that are doing it or have them but i have had the good fortune of getting to drive all of them and its road trash not worth the work. We also used to use corvair stuff ,now that stuff is probable the only one i think that is worse than the pacer

Well Phat I knew I should have listened to you in the first place. I think Iam going to try it anyway just for the learning experiance. I still have the orginal suspension so I can put it back one day. My expections arnt high for it so it wont be a disapointment if it dosnt work. Maybe when Iam done I can write a artical about how bad it is to counter act that artical on how good it is. Later

Mallard if your not afraid to do some cutting and welding,it can be made to work.The bolt in part is what gets me.You have it in front of you so you know what i mean. I would rather see you hack a camaro clip on the thing.You know how i really dont like those on and AD Hey dont lose those upper a-frame bolts,they are a real b#tch to find latter on.
Oh and scrarch the newer camaro...it had struts and no way to mount the upper ball joint. Older 60's chevelle-nova with unbolting steering arms.(that way you can flip the arms) Or older vette.... Have to raise up the inner a-frame mounts to get the anti dive and roll center correct) Good luck man

To put a Camero clip in I would have to cut off the frame rails, Wouldnt I?? On the Pacer is it nessacery to buy that kit from Chassis Eng.? I havent gotten it striped down yet. They just cut the frame on both ends of it and dropped it out so all that is still on it. And no not aftaid of little welding and cutting. Just dont want to cut my frame rails, so I can go back to the arginal if I want. I plan on welding the Pacer to the frame wouldnt trust it being bolted on.

I would not bother with the kit.The article is pretty much all thats worth anything in the kit. Yep ......gotta cut the frame with the camaro. But to get the pacer to look nice it also need to get sunk into the chassis a little.So.....to get it right you would cut your frame either way. Just a hint you need to remove the upper a-frames before it comes off the frame.Just becarefull its a b*tch with out the weight of the car on it(ie coil springs,PLEASE keep what fingers you have) Maybe cahin it up good .(i cut the springs out with a torch and use new ones,before i remove anything) Manual rack or power??

Yep noticed that on the upper arms. And your right about the springs I got one side out last night. My arms are little sore from cranking on the spring compressior. I can live with notching the frame rails so it fits in it, that can be fixed pretty easy. Iam just not to crazy about cutting them all the way off.
It has a power rack. It dosnt bolt to the cross member like the M11 dose looks like it clamps on. Still havent gotten all the grease and dirt off to be sure. I was thinking of finding one that will bolt the the cross member like the M11 dose out of somthing else. Any ideas?

That original streight axle sure is looking better and better every day!!!! :mad: :p

Ahh.......dont give up..As i much as i hate the darn things you will get it to work. You might mention to a few of the hard core guys some o f the problems you will run into. One other thing,if you do change racks. Make sure its a newer rack out of a t-bird or stang 93 + they are slower.The older rack is to quick and it gives a whole bunch other problems. if your looking around at racks .Make sure you get a rack that mounts up front or you will be real [censored] when you turn the wheel left and the truck goes right (dont laugh seen a magazine article do the whole job and not test it,there was some really ticked guys the next month)

mallard
my hollander says, And dont read dutch at all BUTT it looks like the whole frontend susp from matador 75-78, they have two brands of disc, kelsy, bendix.

Thanks I was just looking at NAPA's web site and they have less parts for a Matador the for the Pacer! Guess Ill just go wander around the salavage yard and see if I can match one up.

Mallard
Hollander also talks about spindles, upper and lower arms, and hubs, swapping, I think your disc brake swap is there. When i look at the listing for amc in hollander it puts them all into- ambassador,amx, concord,eagle,gremlin, hornet,javelin, matador,pacer,spirit. I GUESS FINDING MOST COMMON /CHEP PARTS IS VITAL.

REMEBER
PARTS GUYS KNOW PART NUMBERS, SAME BEARING CAN HAVE DIFF P# FOR DIFF CAR

Mallard, I don't know what you want for a look but I just finished putting a Pacer IFS in my '51 Chev 1/2 ton and the ride height is exactly the same as stock. I'm ok with that, the kit that Chassis Engineering is simple at best. If I can find my instructions I'll scan them and email them to you if you want. I'll make a couple of measurements of the parts too.

Fatfenders that would be great on the instructions. Also did you replace the upper A arm bushings? How in the heck did you get them and the stud that the two bolts go thru out of the A arm. Dose one end screw out? Also upper ball joint no one seems to carry them Thanks!

I remember the stud was a [censored] but can't remember what I did. I seems to me that once I loosened everything off it came off pretty easy. I was pretty lucky the IFS I got was out a Pacer that only had 36000 miles on it so everything was real tight. One other thing I've bolted mine in place, I'm going to drive it for a bit and then "if" I like it, I'm going to weld it in later. I'm not 100% convinced this is the way to go, but if it is, it is and if worse comes to worse I'll go another way.
I listen to Phat he's got a lot of experience at hacking an cutting. I file his info away for future reference, if the Pacer turns out to be crap - I'll be all over this Page saying so. I'm not afraid to be wrong, and if I am it'll be my decision to admit it. Also I'm not afraid to go down the the road less travelled either.

I hear ya! I like a good challenge. But I have about talked my-self into writing off my loss on the pacer and rebuild the orginal and get the disc brake conversion. The streight axle has more of the hot rod look anyway.
I am with ya on Phat he knows his stuff Iam just hard headed.
Iam going to mess with the Pacer little more. See what happens.

Hey don't write it off! Sell to the next experimenter ... add a few bucks for the work you've done on it. I'll send ya the info if I find it ...

Well just found one piece of the problem! JC Whitney has the upper and lower ball joints. No one else seemed to have the upper ones. Theres a twinkle and end of the tunnel! Now if I can find spindles that fit with disc breaks ill be in there! MAYBE!

CRAP! I called and they no longer stock the upper ball joint. Its dark in the tunnel again! :mad:

Check with the AMC Bulletin board, maybe some one there can help with parts/references.

http://www.amxfiles.com/resource/tech/discbrakes.html
http://pub8.ezboard.com/bamcforum

Hey thanks for those links! Well I got all the access metal cut off the cross member. Got one of the A arms stripped down that was a pain! Finding upper ball joints is my biggest problem. They are rivited in the A arm. I drilled the rivits out and got it out. They are still tight but the rubber boot has had it. Getting the bushings out wasnt easy either. But nothing a good wack with a hammer in the right place couldnt get out!
I went to the junk yard and looked around at spindles. There were several possabilities I didnt have the orginal with me to match a set up. Several GM cars and trucks looks like they may work. Even though they didnt have steering racks they still had steering arms on the front of the spindles. Ill go next sat and match something up.
I guess next step is set the cab back on the frame and mock up the front sheet metal and get it centerd in the wheel well. Ill keep posting my progress on this thread for easy future refrence.

Mallard what ever you do make sure you get the shims back in the frontend for the castor before you line up the wheel base.(castor pulls the wheels back toward the firewall) The spindles also have to be the same height or the roll centers will be screwed up.Maybe wait on the ball joints till you have a spindle.You may have to make the the ball joints for the spindles work in the pacer a-arms. Let me tell yah it gets worse and worse if you start mixin parts. Look hard for AMC disc spindles or leave the drums on it.

Ok I have to ask what are shims and castor. I am sure I know just didnt know what to call them. I got my hands on the poor instructions from that company that sells the kit. With a little help from fatfenders it showed were to place it from the front of the frame. 20.5 inches from the front for the frame to the bottom A arm. Of course Ill check all that with wheeels on in the fender wells. Thanks :p

Mallard, the shims Phat is talking about are the alignment adjustment shims located between the upper control arm cross shaft and the mounting points for the upper A-arm retaining bolts on the crossmember. Placement of these shims is both important to alignment, and to wheel positioning. Please do let us know about your progress.

Wannabe

Well I know what you are talking about but dont recon I remember there being any shims on there. Did they fit around the stud bolt on the cross member like a washer? Ill have to look at it again tonight when I get home. :confused:

The shims you are mentioning are for front end alignment....some will ahve 0ne some may have 3 or 4 while others may have some on both it all depends on how far it is out of alignment as to how many shims wil be in it ....no set rule that every one will have 1 or 2 or 3

also the shims come in different thicknesses.....as you should already know....you will have to have the front end alligned when you put it in...unleess you have lots of $$$$$$$ for new tires weekly

So what should the caster angle be on a truck when there is no weight IE. cab, fenders, engine. Should it e zero caster with the full weight on it?

Sorry mallard NO shims on that one. I had to think about it. Just put the upper a-frames exactly as they were in the car.(any witness marks???) The upper a-frames slide on that type of frontend(like stangII) Sorry buddy i forgot!!! You should put about 4 - castor in it (for manual rack) 6 if its power. Dont go by the measurement s in the destuctions.Camber about .5(the top of the wheel should be tipped in at the top with radial tires) 0 with bais.

MAN! thought I had lost something. I am all most positive that nothing adjusts the caster on the upper A arm. There are two bolts comming out of the spring hat that the A arm cross stud bolts to. Then the stud goes thru the sides of the A arm with the bushings and bolts on each end. Guess you could use washers on one of the bolts to raise one end to adjust the caster. Adjusting the camber will be the hardest.

UPDATE! Well think I am going to give in. Cant re-place the upper ball joints. They dont make replacements and cant find a good match. Unless you are lucky enough to find one that has very low miles and all the ball joint rubber boots are in good shape and the rack dosnt need rebuilt this is not a good choice. The amount of money and time spent its better to go with the MII IFS kits or use the orginal straight beam with mono leafs and disc break upgrade. Which is what I will more then likly do. Unless some mircle comes about and I find a replacement upper ball joint this will be the end of my saga with a Pacer IFS swap. Thanks for everyones help! :p

Someone should put this thread in the tech section under "After math of a Pacer front end swap" or something like that . . . :rolleyes:

The irony of this is....you can still get lower ball-joints, tie rod ends, reman racks, etc. WTF!?!?

Wannabe

I know you can get everything you need to rebuild it execpt the upper ball joints. Whats up with that?

Mine is coming out. It takes 4 days to get brake rotors. I have had NAPA racks go bad at 6 months old. It drives not much better than what i had stock.38,000 miles and to much grief. Its gettting a nice coil over unit this summer.

The saga lives on! Well I lucked out I found Upper ball joints that will fit as well as spindals with disc breaks. Its off a 81 Monte Carlo. I havent actually pulled the parts yet will do that next saturday. I took my spindals and ball joint to the salvage yard and compared the two and they are pretty close. The holes on the ball joint were it mounts to the "A" are is the same. On the spindals the distance between the upper and lower ball joints is a little differant, but that shouldnt really matter.
I started making perches for the frame to sit on the cross member. I dont like the way that kit from C.I. stits the frame to up high. So I am makeing my own so the frame sits lower in the cross member. Ill keep yall posted and try to get some pics posted. :p

Hey, Mallard, that sounds cool! 81 Monte Carlo, eh? LOTS o' them around...I believe that Olds Cutlass, Buick Regal, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc. from the mid 80's all use the same spindles/balljoints...Where's that guy with the Hollander exchange manual? :confused: PLEEEEEEAAAASSSSSSSEEEEE keep us posted, and yea, pics would be cool, especially what you modify or change on that C.E. kit!

Wannabe

Newsflash-S-10 drop spindles will work the same as midsize GM car (same balljoints). MMM...two more inches lower....

OK, permit me to play "devil's advocate" for a moment...

Even if you can find replacement parts NOW, what's going to happen in ten or fifteen years when you want to freshen up that Pacer front end?

Let's face it... there weren't a lot of Pacers made to begin with, even fewer are still in the junk yards, and I can understand why automotive aftermarket parts makers might drop those Pacer replacements.

How wise it is to "upgrade" your truck with something that is already obsolete and difficult to service?

Food for thought.

---> Bill

Locobreath, You are absolutely correct! But by the time I get done with it, if it works, I will have less the 500 bucks into it. Not bad for 10 or more years of use. Maybe by then I can afford a M11. One thing I am making sure I do is not to damage the frame rails in anyway. Other then welding the IFS to it. This has turned more into a learning experiment for myself then anything. Kinda that male ego "doing it just to see if I can" thing going on. since I am swapping spindles for Monte Carlo the rotors and calipers shouldn't be a problem replacing as well as the upper ball joint. In comparing the upper and lower bushings they seem to be similar with others at the "bone yard" Later