The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline TWO bushings in front of torque tube?

'52 1/2 ton. I've been in the process of replacing my u-joint, seals, etc., for the first time. I've read everything I could and got some great help from folks on this forum (I have another recent thread, "Replacing u-joint for the first time"). Based on suggestions, I decided to go ahead and install an okie bushing since I had everything apart. Today, I pulled the original bushing without too much trouble. I fully expected the okie bushing to be a snug fit. To my delight, it went in the first inch or so just fine. Then, it stopped. I hit it harder thinking it would move slightly, but nope, it wouldn't budge. It wasn't like it was just a snug fit, but rather like it had suddenly hit something solid. I was hitting it with a small sledgehammer against a block of wood. But, instead of the thud sound you would expect, I was getting a metal-on-metal ping. Pulled out the new bearing, looked down the tube, and it appears that I have another factory bushing inside there. I tried the bushing puller and it will not grab it. I'm guessing that a quick fix for a sloppy bushing at one time was to simply drive a new bushing on without pulling the old one? That appears to be what has happened. And, there must be a step at that point in the tube, because that bushing simply will not go any farther in, and like I mentioned, I can't pull it out. I was not leaking much oil down the tube anyway, but I did have a lot of slop in that front bushing (u-joint was worn out, which was causing the shaft to vibrate and wobble). At this point, I think I will just buy a factory-style front bushing and put it in...assuming I can purchase one. Has anyone else seen this? Was it a common, cheap fix at one time? Photos show the bushing I removed, and then looking down the tube you can barely see the second bushing.

Check to see if there is a pin holding the bushing in place .someone will chime in but I have to do the same thing and I read that some of them have a dowel pin.

The earlier models had a pin (dowel) holding the bushing in place. But, I've removed the bushing that should be there. Problem is that there is another bushing that SHOULDN'T be there and it is what is causing my trouble.

Just a thought could you make up a puller to reach farther down

If I were a machinist maybe.

Looks like there were two front bushings in the torque tube.
My guess is they had a bad front bushing and not a bushing puller, so they just pushed the first bushing down the torque tube.
I have never seen that before.

Call these guys http://www.gennieshifter.com they make the bushing pullers.
Tell them what happened and see if they can make you a bushing puller with longer fingers.
1-877-7-GENNIE

In the meantime fabricate a hook with a coat hanger and see if you can get past the backside of the bushing and hook it.
To see if the front bushing is backed up against the rear propeller shaft bushing.

Let us know what you find out.

How about drilling a hole in the top of the torque tube so you can get behind the second bushing with a hammer and punch to move it forward? Once it's out, thread the hole for a tapered pipe plug, plug the hole, and grind the surface flush again. That would be less work than pulling the whole third member, disassembling the gears, and using a long piece of pipe to knock the bushing out from the back end!
Jerry

Jorb, you seem to know what you are talking about with these old drivelines. I've looked at a drawing you provided on another thread showing a cross-section of the toque tube. The inside of the tube seems to be smooth all the way back. There does not appear to be a step in there to keep that second, front bushing from being pushed back. I didn't want to pound on my okie bushing too hard for fear of damaging it (although I was using a wood block). Assuming there is no step, could I take a piece of iron pipe the right size to slide over the propeller shaft, but small enough to fit inside the torque tube and pound that bushing back that way? I know if I can that it will eventually hit the rear bushing and push it back (like the okie bushing would normally do). Assuming this would work, is there room in the back for both those bushings to slide back there? I hope I'm making sense. I'm definitely not going to pull m y differential, and I'm sure getting a new puller custom-made is going to cost $$$.

There are two bushings from the factory. The front most bushing supports the U joint yoke and the rear bushing supports the driveshaft. There is a step that the rear bushing and seal are up against. The Oakie bushing I used and the spares that I have have a subtle increase in diameter in the front portion. I guess the idea is for the unit to center before the interference fit is encountered. Mine took a lot of force to drive in.

Yes, I understand that there are two bushings from the factory. However, mine has THREE bushings....two front bushings and one rear. Someone drove a new front bushing in without removing the old one. It was sitting right up against the outer bushing. I didn't know this until I pulled the front bushing and was trying to install my okie. The okie firmly butted up against something about an inch in. I pulled it out, took a look, and it is hitting a SECOND front bushing. And my bushing puller is not long enough to grab it.

My reference to a step wis that I was thinking maybe that old, second front bushing is pushed back against a step because it does not want to seem to move backward. But, I have not put all that much force on it...not yet anyway. My thinking now is that there can't be a step behind the front bushing because if there were you couldn't install an okie bushing or the okie would hit that step also.

Looking closely at drawings that jorb provided, it appears that there is a step on the propeller shaft that prevents the rear bushing/seal from going back. So, even if I could drive that second, front bushing back, it can't displace the rear bushing/seal because of that step.

So, it seems as I am left with three choices: 1) put the old bushing back in and drive the truck; 2) pull the differential and drive the old bushings out from the rear; 3) have a special, longer puller made to pull that bushing out.

If that extra bushing is not secured tightly, there is a possibility, I would think of it sticking to the driveshaft and turning in the housing. If that happened it could cause damage.

The 2nd front bushing had to be far enough away from the 1st front bushing,
for the bushing puller's fingers to be able to hook the backside of the 1st front bushing.
I'm surprised you were able to get the backside of the 1st front bushing hooked.
Unless the 2nd front bushing was far enough away for the fingers to hook it.

You could drill a hole on the top side of the Torque Tube like HotRod Lincoln suggested.
Or use a cut-off wheel with a thin disc to cut a slot on the top side of the Torque Tube and drive it out with thin chisel
or get it close enough to grab it with bushing puller.
The Okie sleeve will cover the slot from the inside, then fill the slot with liquid steel. After it drys sand smooth. Ball housing will cover outside.

Earlier trucks had an elongated slot on the top of the Torque Tube facing the underside of the cab.
The Filling Station’s Chevrolet Tech Article
Torque Tube Bushing Replacement Shows elongated slot on Torque Tube
The benefit of this was the ability to replace bushings & oil seal while Torque Tube remained in truck.
1934 Chevrolet Repair Manual
Slot in Torque tube Lower RH corner of page.

The only way the Okie bushing will fit is when there is only one bushing in the Torque Tube, the rear propeller shaft bushing.
There is just not enough room, besides the propeller shaft will run cooler, because there will be less friction and the gear lube
will not have to go through two front bushings to lubricate the rear propeller shaft bushing.

Don't give up on the http://www.gennieshifter.com guys, they are stand up people.
I had a incorrectly made bushing puller and they sent me a new one, no question asked.
I said' What do you want me to do with the bad one. He said" Throw it away..
I didn't even buy it from him, I bought it from one of his vendors, that he sells them to.

xfiles

I was mistaken in my concern about the extra bushing. It rides on the yoke shaft so I would think it would not be a problem.

jorb, I mirror your thoughts about my being able to pull that front bushing with that second one butted up against it. I don't know how I was able to do it unless it was just the pressure of the bearing pullers fingers pressing INSIDE the bushing. I've never done this before (you can probably tell) and on my first attempt at removing that bushing, the fingers did NOT grab it. I could see that the puller was moving back out, but the bushing was not moving. So, I drove it back in and the second time I smacked that lever that expands the fingers several times with a hammer. In fact, I clamped vise-grips onto that lever and smacked the vise-grips really hard several times. After that, the bushing came out. So, I may have just had enough pressure on the fingers that they "stuck" instead of actually being able to open behind the bushing. I went back and measured, and that second bushing is sitting inside the tube the exact same distance that the removed bushing is wide. So, it appears it was butted up against it.

Having slept on it, I think I might be able to modify my bushing puller to do the job. I think I will try and cut it in two, as far back as I can (right where the hollow section becomes solid). Then, if I hope to find a piece of thin pipe, or conduit, that will be a slip fit over the puller. Cut the pipe/conduit the length of a bit longer than the length of a bushing. Slip one end of the pipe/conduit over the solid part of the puller and tack weld or drill/tap and install a few screws. Do the same with the hollow end of the puller. This will in effect simply lengthen the puller the length of the pipe/conduit.

At this point, that seems to be the easiest and cheapest route. What do you think? If that fails, I will consider cutting the slot or calling the bushing puller folks. Thanks to everyone for all the help.

How about using a piece of tubing (or pipe) of the correct size (just a touch larger than the ID of the bushing and larger on the inside than the driveshaft) and cut some threads on it that you can screw into the bushing? Think hollow tap or screw extractor. It would destroy the bushing, but you should be able to use it to screw into the bushing and then pull the whole works out. That might be easier to fab up that to modify the puller you have.

Lengthening the bushing puller as you described would work.
But I would call the bushing puller folks first, because they may have run into this situation before.
They might have a solution that we can't think of.

You could make a deal with them, where you send them the regular bushing puller that you have,
and they make you a longer bushing puller for a few bucks more than the cost of the regular bushing puller.
The worst thing they can say is no,

klhansen,
Has a good idea with the threads on the end of a pipe, the only problem is,
threading into the brass bushing might be all that comes out. Leaving just the bushing housing. Picture of an original front bushing
If that is what happens repeat the same thing to the bushing housing.
But I think it will work on the first try.

Thanks for all the insight.

Here is an update: I found thin-wall, steel pipe lying around my shop (actually a fence post for a chain-link fence) that was almost the perfect size. I cut my puller in two. I cut a slot in the pipe to make clearance for the slide on the puller, then slipped the pipe over each end of the puller. I drilled some holes in both ends and put in some short, self-threading screws. I installed the modified puller and I could FEEL it going thru the bushing and then popping thru (I couldn't feel this on the first one I pulled out because as soon as it cleared the first bushing it was in the second one). I expanded the fingers and put a few turns on the bolt. It tightened up, got good and tight and I thought I had success. But, not yet. The small screws that I held it together with began shearing. So, tomorrow I will see if I can get it welded instead of using the screws. The good news is that it definitely grabbed the bushing and if I can get it welded that should solve my problem. I'll let you know!

Thanks again for the help.

Cool! Glad you're making progress.
That's a perfect reason to go buy a welder.

This might not make any sense but, the 2nd front bushing that is about a inch inside the torque tube,
might come out easier with the 1st front bushing you pulled out put back into the torque tube.
Just don't put it in all the way, put it in about half way.

Those bushing are press fit, so in order for them to fit snugly their outside diameter
is slightly larger than the inside diameter of the torque tube.
When the bushing is pressed in, it expands the wall of the torque tube.
So if you put the 1st one next to the 2nd one, the torque tube will expand outward, which lessens the wall pressure on 2nd one or both.
Its kind of like a marble inside of a rubber hose. The bulge in the hose is where the marble is.

Lesser torque tube wall pressure on the 2nd front bushing might do the trick.

Update:

The faint glow I saw in the distance has now turned into a dim light at the end of a tunnel. I got my modified bushing puller welded today. I got the second bushing pulled. That sucker was a whole LOT tighter than the first one. I used a large 1/2" drive socket wrench, with about a 16" handle and could not turn that screw. Had to put a 2' piece of pipe over it to get enough leverage to turn it and still had to put everything in it I had. But, it DID come out! Then, for some reason, I decided to look down into the torque tube, and I'm glad I did. The bronze/copper insert was lying back inside the tube, behind that bushing. I didn't know what it was when I saw it back in there, and it wasn't until I fished it out that I could tell what it was. If I'd driven that okie bushing back onto it, I imagine it would have crushed it and destroyed the okie oil seal at the same time. I would really like to hear the story from the guy who drove that bushing down that tube.

Now, on to my next problem...installing my okie bushing. I got it started and it began getting tighter and tighter, which I fully expected. But, as long as I kept pounding it with a 5 lb. hammer it slowly slid back into the tube. That is, until it got to within 1/4" and then it stopped. No matter how hard I pounded, it would not budge. Thinking it was actually moving, but just slowly, I marked it, and kept beating on it. I even got a 10 lb. sledge up into my cab and swung it as hard as I could in such limited space. It won't move. I'm thinking it shouldn't be a problem because there seems to be plenty of room to still connect my trunnion up to the u-joint, and there is at least 2-3" of fore and aft movement allowed for that trunnion to slide on the propeller shaft. And, the way that system is designed, I can't see where that tube/shaft is going to be moving for and aft anyway very far anyway.

Before I installed the okie, I checked how far back the rear bushing/seal was and compared that to the length of my okie. It was a little farther back than my okie will reach, so I know that rear bushing is not my problem.

You can see in one photo my extended bushing puller along with everything that came out of the front of that torque tube. The second photo shows how far that okie bushing is sticking out of the torque tube.

So, do you think that 1/4" protusion will be okay? I sure hope so because it won't go any farther.

Read the thread 18 below this thread. It’s by Gary P and then read Tim’s post about different sizes of Okie Bushings. Maybe you have the wrong one.

Yes. I had read that previously. I measured my old bushing and it is .005" smaller in diameter than the okie. Hardly enough to matter I would think.

At this point I don't think you a have choice because you probably can't pull out the Okie bushing and file it down.

The picture looks like the Okie bushing is sticking out more than a 1/4".

You should turn the rear wheels to see if the propeller shaft rotates freely. Is the wiggle gone?

Without the ball housing on, bolt everything together, rear yoke, U-Joint and front yoke.
Now look to see how close the rear yoke flange is to the Okie bushing.
Check attached photo.

xfiles

Oh, there is no doubt that I can't pull it back out.

Agree that it looks like more than 1/4" in the photo, but I measured it. My next step is to see if I can pick up a pipe fitting today that is nearly same diameter as the okie. I'm going to pound on that and see if it does the trick. I'll be sure to stay away from the inner edge of the okie so as to not beat up the brass bushing. I think part of my problem is that a lot of the force was being absorbed by the wood block.

Seems to me you could cut or grind down the protruding piece as need, the okie bushing has plenty of extra bearing surface.

I was thinking along the same lines, although it would be difficult to do with that propeller shaft in the way.

I made another tool from a piece of 1" pipe with a union on the end (see photo). The union is almost exactly the same outside diameter as the bushing. The pipe's inside diameter is only slightly larger than the propeller shaft. So, it pretty much centers itself on the bushing which puts the force on the aluminum bushing instead of the brass insert.

I was thinking that my problem might be that the wood was absorbing most of the energy of the hammer blows. It transferred the force okay until it got really tight, and then it was cushioning the blow a little too much.

I was right. It worked (see second photo).

Good to here you got it in. I was about to call this torque tube, the torque tube from hell.
That pipe you made-up to pound in the Okie the last 1/4" was a good idea.
Now you can reassemble everything.
Here is my Okie Bushing Driver Tool > Concept I posted awhile back.

Did you turn the rear wheels to see if the propeller shaft rotates freely.
Is the wiggle gone in the propeller shaft?
Looking down torque tube, can you see if the rear Okie bronze bushing is in its original position?
Does your screw on retainer cap have to big O-ring washers?
Do you know how to correctly adjust the ball housing?

Squirt some gear lube inside the Okie before you slide in the rear yoke.
After you have it all closed up unscrew the speedometer driven gear and fill the housing with a 1/2 pint of gear lube then top-off tranny.
It takes awhile for the tranny to funnel gear lube past the main output shaft's rear bearing into the ball housing area & then to the torque tube bushings.
Run the truck for a couple miles then check tranny fluid again, keep checking until the fluid level doesn't go down any more.

Almost time to give the truck a drive!

Well, the light at the end is getting brighter, but I'm still not there yet.

To answer your questions, I did not turn the wheels. At this point, either it turns or it doesn't!!!! The wiggle in the propeller shaft is completely gone. Just now saw this post, so I didn't look down the okie for the rear bushing, not sure I would have been able to tell anyway. Yes, I have the two steel washers and the seal between them. And, yes, I have read the procedure on how to adjust the ball housing. In fact, I did that fitting yesterday and settled on two shims.

Here is where I am as of right now: Waiting for help! I have everything slid on/in the torque tube. When I try and align the u-joint assembly up, it is more than I can do by myself. When I took it apart, there was no pressure on the torque tube. I had a jack under it and the yoke just slid straight back after removing the caps. The truck has not moved, but now, the yoke is about 1/2" toward the driver's side farther than it should be. I can pry it over, but I can't pry it, hold it up, and install the capscrews at the same time. So, for the first time in this project, I have called for backup.

A 1/2" inch is not much.
What you could try is putting the jack under the drivers side leaf spring.
Compressing or lifting the leaf spring upward a little, may move the end of the torque tube over enough, to line-up the rear yoke with front yoke.

Do you think you may have tweaked the torque tube a little when cranking on the Okie bushing puller?

The torque tubes are riveted into the carrier housing. Picture
You could check the trueness of the torque tube. Picture

I think one leaf spring is hanging slightly lower than the other.

I got it connected with a little bit of help. It would be just my luck that I tweaked the tube!

Before I attached the ball housing, I did put the tranny in neutral and spin a tire to make sure everything was free. Everything turned freely with no strange noises. I ran out of time, but all that's left is to attach the transmission support to crossmember, torque the ball housing down, tighten the collar, and fill with oil.

Hope to get the test drive in today.

A ratcheting cargo strap makes a very effective "third hand" when I'm working by myself on projects like this. Just wrap the strap around the part that needs to move a little, find a convenient anchor point, ands ratchet away!
Jerry

Hotrod Lincoln, why didn't I think of that?

Well, FINALLY I've finished the job!!!! Well, almost. Just gotta reinstall the tranny cover, floormat, etc..

I bolted everything up, poured some lube into the speedo cable hole, topped off lube in the normal fill plug, and waited for all the lube to drip out. No drips. Believe it or not, it was leaking so bad before that even cold, the lube would drip out of the ball housing and also the collar. Leaving the floorboard transmission cover off, I backed her out of my garage listening carefully for strange noises. Good news is that she actually moved when I let out the clutch, and I didn't hear any strange noises...even with that tranny cover off. So, I took her for a very slow, 2-mile ride, one where I had to turn around into a steep driveway (I knew this would deflect the ball quite a bit. Still no noises. I kept the speed down below 30 mph because I wanted to give those very tight bearing surfaces in that u-joint a chance to mate to one another without being stressed too much. Parked her back in the garage and checked for leaks. No leaks.

I cranked her back up and headed out for a 5-mile trip. This time I got her up to max speed (max speed for the old girl when I'm driving is 45) for a couple of miles. Still no noises, and additionally no vibration. That u-joint and torque tube bushing were so worn previously that the fillings in your teeth would vibrate out at about 35 mph! She drove smoother than she has since I've owned her. Parked again, no leaks.

So, after she cools, I am going to check lube level again and top off if needed. Button her up and call it a success.

SUMMARY: A novice decided to replace his ball housing seals because they leaked. While doing so, he replaced his u-joint, removed TWO old torque tube bushings, and installed an okie bushing. I couldn't have done it without the help of the knowledgeable people in this forum. Although I'd read everything I could get my hands on, I still ran into problems (like we all do), and it was nice being able to actually ask questions of people who had been there and done that. So, thanks again.

P.S. I am a semi-pro photographer, so I took lots of photos of the procedure. I might write one of the how-to articles using some of those photos. Not because I am now an expert...just the opposite. There are probably others out there who would like to do this job, but feel they don't have the skills or special tools to do it, and are afraid to try. I might could explain it in simpler terms, with photos, that they might understand.

I searched our Tech Tips and to my amazement I found nothing on torque tube maintenance or U-Joint replacement. By all means feel free to write something up and submit it to editor@stovebolt.com for inclusion in the Tech Tips section. 🛠

That is great news!

With the discovery of the 2nd front torque tube bushing, I have to say your project was very unique.
Its not everyday that you find out someone did something out of the ordinary.
I'm still not 100% sure why someone would install two front bushing.
At least it is something to warn people about in future Okie bushing installations.
Now we can say' We have seen that before.
You never know what you're going find when you open a can of worms.

With all the problems, I forgot to ask did you use locking clips on the u-joint cap screws/bolts?
My truck never had them.

As for the tweak in the torque tube you should have no worries.
The ball housing will keep everything straight.
The only other thing I would check is for a leak where the torque tube slides into the rear cast iron carrier housing. Picture

I would like to see more photos of the procedure.
The how-to article sounds like great idea.

The u-joint I removed did not have the locking clips. It did have split-ring lock washers, though. The new u-joint came with something I thought was rather strange. The caps actually had like a loop of metal on either end that the bolt went through, which left a little gap. When you tightened the bolt, the gap was reduced. I'm assuming that is some type of springy material that puts pressure on the screw head. I reused the lock washers anyway, so it has two locking methods. Also, I was a little surprised that there is no torque value on those capscrews in the service manual. I just got them good and snug.

Concerning the second front bushing...I was thinking about that. I have to assume that the guy who did it didn't have a bushing puller. And, really, back in the day, that may have been an accepted repair. As I understand it, okie bushings didn't come along til the sixties. These trucks had already been on the road for twenty years. Unless you are installing an okie, then you could stack four or five of those bushings back in there before you hit the rear bushing/seal. Just a thought.

Thanks again for all your help. Now I have to find something else to fix.

Yes, I know that there is nothing on that procedure. I found lots of good info by doing a search of all the threads. Lots of good stuff...a little here and a little there.

Do you have some photos of what that caps screws locking loop of metal looks like?

The truck shop manual does not specify a ft. lbs. of Torque on the caps screws it just says tighten cap screws securely.
The 1949-1953 Passenger Car Shop Manual specifies 25-30 ft.lbs. Torque. Click on "read under assembly".

The four Universal Joint Ball (Housing) collar bolts, 8-12 ft. lbs. Torque.
The four Universal Joint bolts or cap screws, 25-30 ft.lbs. Torque read under assembly
The one Universal Joint front yoke attaching bolt, 15-20 ft. lbs. Torque

Passenger Car and truck use the same u-joint and ball housing parts.

Jorb, Here is a photo of the new u-joint. Got it from Classic Car Parts. It was described as having the locking clips, but this is how it came. So, I just figured it was some kind of new-fangled locking device. It does compress when you tighten the screw, although the gap doesn't completely close.

Dave, this is a super thread, and I'm looking forward to seeing a writeup with more photos.


But a little history trivia for the 4th:

The OKie Bushing assembly (reportedly so named since they were invented and produced in Oklahoma by National Machine Works, Inc, and frequently seen misspelled as Oakie Bushing) was patented by the National inventor, Theodore C. Gerner, in 1946. Here's a link to the original Okie Bushing Patent, #2,403,520. He was an active mechanic and designer of similar parts, with 21 Patents ranging from idler arm bushings and brackets to hydraulic valve lifters. He authored a patent somewhat related to the Okie bushing, for "Propeller Shaft Housing Repair," also in 1946, with which he combined and expanded his original [Okie] Bushing patent, filing a new Patent 2,627,732 in 1953. There were a few additional patents from 1947-1951 that extended the concept to drivelines other than Chevy and GMC.

During that time frame, as the torque tube designs changed, at least three sizes were produced. I believe there are forum posts by jorb that call out the sizes, specifically. Also, Chevs of the 40's lists the sizes that are currently available for two of the three parts they carry. It's interesting to note their Instructions appear to be copied from early National Machine Works information, and show the patent number, and two part numbers covering years through '50.

Continuing the National Machine Works patent story just a bit, it appears they got into a court battle with Jack L. Harris of H-C Products in 1951, relating to a "contract" between Gerner and Harris that started in 1944 for production royalties on Gerner's design. There is some interesting Court Case Text that describes the inventor and his work just a bit.

Happy 4th!