The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Cliffords 261 Hydraulic Lifters

I've been on a quest for some lifters and a cam grind that would suit my needs for the last few weeks. The motor is from a Canadian made 261 Pontiac. From what I've been reading it sounds like hydraulic lifters are a bit of a roll of the dice and there are not many reliable suppliers for lifters. Does anyone have any experience with the lifters included in the kit on Cliffords website?


https://www.shop.cliffordperformance.net/Chevy-235-261-Hydraulic-Cam-Kit-92-1021-K.htm

Seem to come across Sealed Power lifters often as well. Anyone have any insight?


Would be more than happy to get a set of new old stock ones, but I'm having a hard time confirming that anything I find on online is the correct lifter. Anyone have a part number? Well aware that this has all been discussed lots but I haven't been able to draw any conclusions from anything else I've read.


Also deciding on a cam grind, and it sounds like the 261 corvette grind would be adequate for me. Does anyone know what that would compare to for a hydraulic cam?


Any advice is appreciated

Elgin Industries sells a clone of the Corvette cam at a very reasonable cost. It might be possible to get a custom cam grinder to put clearance ramps for hydraulic lifters onto one of those cams. The basic difference in a solid and a hydraulic cam is a short area of gradual lift intended to gradually take up the clearance before a more rapid rate of lift opens the valve. Hydraulic cams have a very short "clearance" ramp, only .003"-.005", compared to a solid cam's .006"-.015" or so, since the lifter never actually breaks contact with the cam lobe.

I'm considering trying to put sleeves in stovebolt lifter bores, and running MOPAR big block hydraulic lifters instead of OEM items or aftermarket replacements. Custom pushrods would probably be required to do that, but Comp Cams has kits to make pushrods with whatever length and top/bottom shape are desired.

Edit: I just looked at the Clifford cam ad- - - - -OUCH! I hope they include a big jar of Vaseline with that one! No timing and lift specifications, so you'll be buying the proverbial "pig in a poke"!
Jerry

Yeah they definitely want to gouge ya. Wasn't thinking of buying the kit. Was thinking of trying to find out where they sourced the lifters from and then trying to go to the source. On another note, does anyone have any experience with delta camshaft? They have a grind they call "252" that sounds similar to what i'm going for- which is pretty much a smooth idle and flat torque curve.

All I can find is a home page for Delta- - - -no product listings. Do they show timing and lift specifications for that "252" cam anywhere? 252 degrees of duration is very similar to the Elgin cam we put into John's 261 last year. It was a solid lifter grind, however. Elgin advertises it as a "290" duration, but they include the clearance ramps in their duration numbers, when the valve is actually still closed. I seem to remember the actual "valve open" numbers being somewhere in the 250-260 degree range when we checked the cam with a degree wheel.
Jerry

The hydraulic lifter issue has been a perplexing one for a good number of years now. For whatever reason, maybe because nothing is USA made anymore, the new manufactured hydraulic lifters seen to collapse prematurely. Sometimes right away, sometims after you get a couple of hundred miles on them. So the wisdom has been to get either nos gm lifters, or aftermarket lifters that were made at least 25 or better years ago.

A friend of mine who owns the machine shop that does my machine work was rebuilding a 53 powerglide motor and went through 3 different sets of new lifters. Every set had lifters that collapsed. I gave him a set of nos gm and that solved the problem. So I would say, kick the weeds and hold out for a set of gm lifters.

So, for 54-55 motors with powerglide trans (remember the blocks are different depending on the trans used in 54-55), and all 56-58 motors, the gm number is 5231450 (HL-18) and for 59-62 the gm number is 5231830 (HL-31).

As for the corvette 235 cam, it is not all that much different then a standard 235 cam of the era, a tiny bit higher in lift. The ramps are just a bit quicker then a standard hydraulic cam so there is some difference. Not a terrible cam, I ran one for a very short period, but not really all that much of an improvement. In a 261 application, it’s no improvement at all given the larger displacement of the 261 over the 235 motor and it’s just a stock 261 cam. I ran Clifford cams when jack Clifford was still living. They were made by Erson in those days ground to jack Clifford’s cam specs. They were pretty good cams, including the dual pattern cams he use to sell. I still have one left that I bought back in 82 or so that is way way too big (I was still in the bigger is better phase) so that one is destined for a regrind. i have run a Chet Herbert regrind that was one of the better cams I ever had (I still have it in a motor in the back of the garage.) I have run Howard and Isky, they were ok but not stellar. My recent cam purchases came From Schneider in San Diego. Jerry Cantrell, the boss, still answers the phone, or his son, and he will grind you a new cam if he can get a decent blank (that is the issue at the moment, new blanks are made periodically, some are better then others) or regrind your cam. You tell him what motor, the car, trans, gearing, weight and what you are doing with the car and he will put a grind together for you. I had a really good experience with them, including when I nicked a lobe clearencing the cam for 302 gmc truck rods. They reground the cam and did not kill me on price. So you have some alternatives.

Hydraulic Camshafts with lifts in the .410-.420 range and duration in the low 250s puts you in the 1800 to 3700 rpm power band, if you want just a little more umph, a cam in the .450 lift range and a duration in the low 260 range puts the power band slightly higher at 2000-4300. Those ranges are different with a mechanical cam because you can use faster ramps and build power earlier with a mechanical cam. If you are looking for that rumpety rump warmed up cam sound, go to mechanical lifters.

Finally, just to be somewhat complete, there are no known issues with any of the mechanical lifters on the market.

I had a 261 cam reground to stock specs by the Delta guys - they do good work. Best thing to do is to call them and they can certainly advise on the grinds they have.

FWIW, the '53-'55 Corvette 235 used the 261 truck cam (PN 38363390), and it is solid lifter. It does run better in the 235 (especially compared to the passenger car OE hydraulic lifter cam). But it's not especially "hot" by most standards, probably because the Corvettes of that era were equipped with Powerglide transmissions. I'm not familiar with what cam was OE for the Pontiac 261 - was it set up for hydraulic lifters?

For a 261 I built with the solid lifter 261 stock grind cam, I advanced 4 deg with an offset key, which improves low-end performance. For lifters, I used parts sourced by my machine shop from Engine Performance Warehouse - EPW PN MA874. Nothing fancy about them, since they are solid lifters.

I got the specs for Deltas camshaft over the phone but of course forgot to write them down. Did a little searching with Dragsix's part numbers and couldn't turn up a whole lot. Guess i'll keep at it for a bit! Sure would be nice to have good reliable hydraulic lifters but the more I search, the more i'm tempted to go the solid route.

Edit: scored 8 of them off ebay. Need a few more and i'll be set!

Don't waste those new lifters on a used cam. Either get a good core cam reground, or keep searching until you find a new cam with specs that suit your preference. Also, remember that the two most common engine building mistakes most people make is too much cam, and/or too much carburetor. A stovebolt engine just can't breathe well enough to take advantage of a radical cam, regardless of what the "seat of the pants" racers claim. None of them can offer any definite proof from dyno runs, no matter how loudly they protest.
Jerry

Yeah my main goal is reliability. Pretty much want to build this motor and not have to go back into it for the next 30 years. Everything else on the truck will be close to stock (sm420, drum brakes, solid front axle), so I could really care less about going fast. Will use the same intake and exhaust manifold that came on the engine- no split exhaust or dual carb setups. Haven't decided on a carburetor yet.

"The ABC's of carburetion- - - - - - - -Always Buy Carter!"

LOL!
Jerry

Spoke with Schneiders today. Their recommendation is .420 lift and 256 duration which sounds pretty similar to the cams you guys are talking about.
Should keep my idle pretty smooth still, correct?

Part of the idle quality depends on the design and plenum volume of the intake system. A completely separated 3 X 1 will idle better than a large plenum 1 X 4 like Clifford.

A little more lift and duration then the 261 cam, but with a pretty smooth idle. Clifford used to sell a very similar cam and advertised it as having a smooth idle. Schneider did a terrific job with the cam in the one 261 motor I have, even after I messed it up. And boy, have I put that motor through its paces the last couple of years. I obtained another cam from them because of my experience with the quality of the advice I received and the product.

Try Oregon Cams...they have many grinds for the 261/235, fast service and in my opinion,better quality job that Delta.

Yeah I called Oregon. Guy seemed like he knew quite a bit about these engines. Recommended 252 duration, .393 lift intake and 260 duration, .409 lift exhaust.

The corvette/261 cam is .405 intake lift, and .414 exhaust lift. Stock 235 cam From 54 (with automatic) through 58 404 intake and .400 exhaust. The Oregon cam has less lift on the intake side then both of those cams. On the exhaust side, just a teeny tiny bit higher lift then a stock 235 cam, but less exhaust lift then the vette/261 Cam. the Oregon cam does not look like much of an improvement.

You're right about the lift, Mike. The difference is in the duration, and I'm betting the valve timing. If I recall the OE 261 cam is 244 duration... but that's subject to old timer's memory fog this morning. LOL. Is that a good trade-off - duration for lift? Probably for low end torque, but IDK.

It would not be a good trade off, at least in my opinion. Keep in mind that on a typical 848 head for example, if you run your finger down the far corner of the exhaust chamber, you will feel a little bump. Exhaust flow stalls right there, about .300 lift, and then picks up a bit after that. So to build a little extra power (a relative term with our dinosaur motors, lol), you need a little of both, some additional duration, and a bit higher lift. So the Oregon cam is in the right neighborhood duration wise for a mild improvement with a smooth idle, but the motor can stand some extra lift. The Schneider specs are just about where I would want them for a mild smooth idle cam, and are pretty much the same as the entry level cam that jack Clifford sold for years (his was 256 duration and I think .420 or .430 lift i forget offhand). If its any help, the cam in my 261 is 280 duration and .492 lift and I drive it all over on the street. But it has a very loopy cam and is probably my upper end for a street cam. So with a cam some 24 degrees less in duration and .60 less in lift then the Schneider, more in the case of the Oregon, you can see that cams in the 253-256 duration range and .410-.430 lift range are pretty mild comparatively speaking. So I would want just a bit more lift.

That being said, Oregon has been in business since he 80s, and you don't stay in that biz very long if your product stinks. Schneider has been in the biz since the 50s, same thing. I like Schneider cams because they treat me well, don't make me feel like they are dong me a favor grinding me a cam for my old motors, and frankly, the cam broke in perfectly and runs great. So I am sort of hesitant to change from a known quantity. That being said, I sent an email to Oregon requesting a list of their cam grinds for the 235/261 chevy because I am always looking for resources for these motors, I did receive a response, a list of all of their available grinds, for all motors it looks like, so I cant really say much about what they recommend or offer specifically for a 235/261.

Thanks, Mike. Makes sense to me.