I am replacing my 59 235 engine in my 3100 with a 55 235 engine. The 55 is a solid lifter engine and was a bit noisy when I was using it due to a worn valve (rocker arm assembly) train. The 59 engine has new hydraulic lifters and I want to use the hydraulic lifters, push rods, and entire rocker arm assembly from the 59 engine on the 55 engine. Will this work ?
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
No if the 55 was originally a stick motor. 55 engine blocks came in two flavors, mechanical lifter only blocks for the stick shift motors and hydraulic lifter blocks for the powerglide equipped motors. The mechanical lifter blocks are not drilled with the oil galley needed to feed hydraulic lifters so those style blocks can only be run with mechanical lifters. The hydraulic lifter blocks can be used with hydraulic lifters or retro fitted with mechanicals. The distinction between the blocks ended after the 55 model year, so for cars From 56 forward, hydraulic lifters on all of them. Trucks are a bit of a toss up because so many motors have been replaced over the years that you rally have to look at the block to see if it’s been drilled or not.
As for the rocker assembly, in 59 gm made the last of the improvements to the 235 and 261 motors including a change in the oiling to the rockers and the rockers themselves. Instead of the steel line that runs from the rear cam bearing to a boss at the underside of the the middle top of the block, the 59-63 motors had a dedicated galley drilled from the main oil galley through the block to the head. The 59 motors had a larger oil oraface drilled in the block passage to the rockers to allow more oil and pressure to the rockers then the prior 55-58 design. The connector for the rocker shafts was also different in that the copper line was crimped off and the system created a sort of pressurized oil to the rockers. The 55-58 connector was open and looped excess pressure back to drain into the head and then the pan.
As you know, the rockers must dribble, not spit, oil. The 55-57 low pressure rockers did this through the dribble hole. If you look at the inside of a 55-58 rocker arm, you will see a small oil groove that directly intersects the dribble hole. If you were to use this rocker on a 59 and up motor, the higher pressure would cause the rockers to spit and not dribble so less or no oiling to the rocker tip, the ball and seat of the adjuster and push rod, and no oil to cool and lubricate the springs and valve stems because the oil was spitting over the important parts that needed lubricant. To solve this issue in the 59 and up motors, gm offset the grove in the rocker so that the added pressure and volumn would assist in getting sufficient oil to and through the rocker shafts, and the offset groove in the rocker arms would restrict the oil to a dribble out of the dribble holes. So, long story I know, but that is why you should not use the 59 rockers on a 55 block, you will starve the top end of oil. Not enough pressure and volumn to over come the offset groove in the rocker arms.
To be complete, let’s say you wanted to use a 59 block with the 55 head and rockers. That would produce too much oil and pressure to the rockers. Gm recognized this issue when it stopped supplying replacement blocks and short assemblies for the 55-58 vehicles. To use a 59 and up block with a 55-58 head and rocker assembly, gm devised a plug and drilled bolt arrangement that restricted the higher pressure and volumn of the 59 block so that you could use that block with the earlier heads.
As for the push rods, quite a few of the mechanical lifter 55 motors came with the old style milk bottle type of lifter. Later 55 stick blocks came with the more recognizable style of lifter. The milk bottles were taller and thus used a shorter push rod then the later lifters which were shorter. So if the 55 motor has milk bottle style lifters, the the push rods from the 59 motor are too long.
Let me see if I can dig up a few parts and take a few photos.
"To use a 59 and up block with a 55-58 head and rocker assembly, gm devised a plug and drilled bolt arrangement that restricted the higher pressure and volumn of the 59 block so that you could use that block with the earlier heads." Info/photos on drilled is given near bottom of this page.
Nobody has mentioned yet that hydraulic lifters can't be used against a solid lifter cam, so all of the above information might be nice to know, but it's irrelevant to the original question. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Various rocker shaft connectors. The connector to the right is the 55-58 connector with the over flow loop. Not uncommon at all though to find a 55-58 motor with the connector crimped off when the rear cam bearing wore and the oil pressure bled off through the increased clearance as an attempt to increase pressure by eliminating the over flow loop. Also when the steel line under the lifter cover got clogged.
I think I did Jerry although not exactly in those words, I did note that 55 stick blocks are not drilled for hydraulic lifters and can only be used with solid lifters. And remember, he also wanted to swap over the rockers and push rods so I think it’s relevant.
In reading this post does this make sence my head is 3836848. My block is 3769716. When i had the engine rebuilt i had a short block that was ordered and the shop rebuilt my head. My truck is a 54. Gmc canadian model 9300. When i installed the moter it had no oil going up to the riockers. The guy at the shop went to the back and came back with a small tube that went from the block to the head under the side cover after that it was all good so my question is what year of block or head did they need the tube. The casting numbers if read right show 58 to 62. Seems odd that i need the tube for oil. Opps the truck moter is a 235 and from the headcasting number that was on the truck appears tbe head was not origional as it is newer than 54
How does he plan to correct the different cam profile between hydraulic and solid cams- - - - -specifically the difference in the clearance ramp rate and duration? The hydraulics will begin lifting the valve several degrees ahead of the point where a solid would begin the lift. Of course, it might be a poor (or dumb) guy's way of getting longer duration. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Pre 59 blocks used the steel line behind the side cover. I have not played much with 54 and earlier blocks so hopefully someone will chime in here but I am pretty sure some of the earlier blocks used that line also. I just don’t know how far back.
This is my 59 motor. Gm eliminated the steel line with a drilled galley from the main to the rockers.
848 head entered service for the 56 model year. I have one that was cast in October of 55 for 56 production year. I also have a 5913 head with an early 56 casting date so it appears both were used in 56. I have heard different people state that the 58-63 head is slightly higher compression (factory literature shows higher compression ratio). One of these days I will cc a 57 head and a 59 head and see if there is a combustion chamber difference between the early and late 848 head.
Pre 59 blocks used the steel line behind the side cover. I have not played much with 54 and earlier blocks so hopefully someone will chime in here but I am pretty sure some of the earlier blocks used that line also. I just don’t know how far back.
The 216's and obviously the earlier engines had that copper pipe through the water jacket. 235's with pressurized crankshafts and replaceable rod bearings took the valve train lubrication from the rear cam bearing area and fed it to the center of the rocker arms. I'm pretty sure the line material changed to steel once it didn't have to be exposed to the coolant. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
My 55 engine has that aftermarket oil line in place under the side cover adjacent to the pushrods. Both of my heads, the one on the 55 engine and the one on the 59 are 848 heads. Both engines had high oil pressure. I guess I need to determine if the engine block is drilled for oil to flow to hydraulic lifters. I bought this engine from a fellow bolter and it was probably rebuilt at some point but I don't know if it was originally an engine with Hydraulic lifters. What and where do I look to determine this detail ?
Just pull a lifter or two and use an inspection mirror to look down the hole. A drilled block will have a large hole running front to back about halfway down the bore for the oil supply to the lifters. You will still have to change the camshaft, even if the engine block has the oil gallery drilled for hydraulics. Hydraulic lifters simply will not work right against a solid lifter cam.
The line under the pushrod cover is original- - - -aftermarket bypass lines are installed outside the engine and get plumbed into the cylinder head for oil supply to the rocker arms if the internal lines and/or passages get clogged up. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I think I may have confused you. Sometimes I confuse myself, lol. The steel line that runs behind the lifter side plate is a factory installed line. Apparently it was a copper line from the 1930s on through maybe the early 50s, steel after that up to 58. 59 to 63 no line at all. It pulls oil and pressure from the rear cam bearing and supplies it to the rockers through a port in the block (about middle to of block). If you look closely at the photo of the 261 with the line you can see how it is routed. if that rear cam bearing became really worn, you would not get much pressure from that port as all of the pressure would bleed off around the worn rear cam bearing. If the line got clogged (very very common especially in motors that had a lot of miles and no oil filter) you would get no pressure or oil to the rockers through the clogged line so the after market oil line kit was one way to get oil to the rockers. It was a copper line that you ran from the oil light sender port (also oil filter supply) generally around the back of the valve cover and then into the port on the side of the head (little hex head plug. You remove the plug and its a direct feed to the rockers). Take a look at the instruction sheet in the post with the photo of the after market oiling kit.
Thanks for all the great information guys! I think I will leave this 55 engine just like it is and install it back in the truck. The only reason I removed it was to be sure my newly built engine was working but it has a cracked block. I'm sick of fooling with it so back to the 55. A little more noise with the solid lifters but I can live with it for now ! I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge being shared !
One possible source of valve train noise could be "wobbly" rocker arms (on the shaft - replacement shafts are available) and/or indentation-wear on the valve-stem-to-rocker-arm mating surfaces. Those surfaces can be reground.
My learning curve has been expensive and involved a lot of work so that is why I am here asking questions before I make any more mistakes. I have many friends telling me to put a v-8 in it but without the stovebolt 6, stomp starter and original 3 on the tree, it just won't be a "good old days" truck anymore. I think most of you understand where I'm coming from.
Where is the crack in the "new" engine? If it's not leaking coolant into the crankcase there are several pretty effective fixes available. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Oil and Coolant are trading places...….. Here's the battle I have been through (this story hurts to talk about it after all the hell I have been through)…. A fully rebuilt engine from a very good builder in Richmond, Va. I installed it and the bracket slipped down on the side of the distributor when I installed it and much to my dismay, it was too late when I discovered this. The oil pressure gauge was barely moving and it was original in the 50 truck so I ASSumed it was broken when it moved ever so slightly, Nope I ruined all the bearing when the metal debris started flowing. I bought and installed the 55 engine and sent the 59 back to the builder. After all new bearings and a few other parts, I got it back and tried it out again. !200 miles later, the oil and coolant were in the wrong spots. I found the head gasket on upside down, scolded the engine builder, and thought I was ok. Then 1200 miles again and the same thing with coolant and oil. I removed the head, had it checked and nothing was wrong..... my builder said he had a similar trouble once with a race engine and suggested using a very slight bit of grey silicon around the water reservoir ports on both sides of the head gasket. I did it a little differently and placed the sealant on both sides of the head gasket at the oil pressure location thinking that perhaps the hi pressure oil was pushing out into the coolant at the head gasket. The other thing that I did was no copper gasket spray all over the copper head gasket upon assembly. I drove 20 miles, got some coolant out of the crank case, maybe a cup. The coolant was about a quart low. I was hoping it was the remaining coolant getting out of the crank case. then I went on another 25mile trip. . The coolant level dropped slightly, I crack the oil drain plug again and get water out of it again. I pulled the valve cover, full of muck and plenty of moisture all over the rocker assembly..... this is a real heart break but I must take the blame because if it is a cracked block it likely happened when I just about seized up the motor from lack of oil when I first I installed it ! I don't know how I could have driven 2400 miles with a cracked block. All I know is this truck has tested my patience and I have been tempted to turn it into a big barn fire. Only it looks so nice that I want to drive it again.... open to suggestions, just don't say small block chevy !
I have located block and/or cylinder head leaks by putting household water pressure into the cooling system with the oil pan removed. It's necessary to bypass the radiator and heater core with some creative plumbing using PVC pipe, then connect a water hose to the block drain port and turn the pressure on. It's also a good idea to have the pushrod cover off to look for leakage there. It beats scrapping what might be an otherwise good block if you can pinpoint and repair the leak. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I keep wondering about the head gasket area because the water level never leaks down past the head level. When I do the test, I'll try to get some pictures from where the leak shows up.
Has the block been checked to be sure there are no low spots that might leak a little coolant under the head gasket? I always check with a long straight edge and a feeler gauge, and if there's more than a .002" low spot anywhere, the top of the block gets decked. Ditto for cylinder heads. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
The cylinder head checked out but I have not checked the top of the engine block. This weekend I will work on getting the pressure test done with water pressure to the block minus the radiator and heater core.
