The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop How Not to use Mar-hyde Wet Look Hardener

Well just thought I’d give a heads up warning to any one thinking of adding “Mar-hyde” 2612 Wet Look Hardener for Acrylic Enamel to a oil based enamel.

I had the running boards blasted with fine coal slag (Black Beauty) last week. This sandblaster is used by many of the car builders in the area and he kind of specializes in that kind of work. They came out very nice not really too rough probably would have been fine with a couple of good coats of primer before painting. But I spent the day sanding them back with #80/120 production paper to what I felt was a smooth enough surface to refinish with paint alone.
Paint of choice was Rustolium Oil based enamel and where the item is not exposed to a severe environment the paint can be applied directly to the bare metal. Been doing that for years even on items that are to be left outside and have never had a problem with rust or paint lifting. I shot the bottom side Monday with Rustolium thinned with a little mineral spirits. Two coats with a little tack time in between and the final coat was tacky in a half hour or so, dried to the touch in a few hours and over night (24hrs) was dry enough to handle and move around, just as Rustolium promiced on the can. They came out beautiful, smooth, glossy and covered well.

Jump ahead to Wednesday morning now, I wiped down the bare metal topside with “Dupont” 3900s First Kleen and wiped it dry. Now here is where I went wrong. I had read a thread last week where someone mentioned adding Mar-hyde 2612 to Rustolium and thought I would try it here on the running boards, since their finish is not generally considered as critical as the body panels. A painter buddy of mine also had mentioned in the past that he always used 2612 whenever he sprayed enamel. So I mixed up a little less than a pint of paint and thinner just as I did for the backside and according to the Mar-hyde container a 2oz/1pt ratio would have been correct. Since this was to be an experiment and I didn’t really have a full pint I thought I would sneak up on the hardener so I only added about 1oz. Results:
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2309453840098611668TfByPm
I guess I should have pitched it out when I was mixing it because I noticed thousands of tiny white spots that looked very much like tiny fisheyes on the side of the plastic beaker as it drained down the sides. The main body of fluid looked fine and I saw no signs of the compounds separating. So I went ahead and shot the boards, all 12sq ft of them. About as soon as I got the last pass on I noticed these very fine white spots forming in the paint. It looks as though I had mixed a handful of silica sand in with the paint. The only thing that I can contribute it to is the hardener. After I had rinsed paint cup and was wiping the inside with a paper towel it started to ball up and stick to the sides of the cup. There was a very sticky film on the inside of the cup which washed off with lacquer thinner. I’m only hoping that a few good rinses with the lacquer thinner cleaned the insides also since this was my new DeVilbiss HVLP gun.
Needless to say that a good sanding and repaint is in the future, probably a week or so down the line after I’m sure the pant has set up real good. The morel of the story is to stick with what you know works and experiment on a cardboard box in stead of a finished panel. I guess now I won’t have her back on the road till this fall, dang I was looking forward to driving her down to the Goodguys swap meet in Joliet this week end!!!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny Graham,

My first guess is that the Mar-hyde didn't like the mineral spirits...could this be the case? You probably wouldn't find this "paint thinner" in a automotive bodyshop.


Stuart

You probably wouldn't find Rustolium in a automotive body shop either Stu. My point was that it is rumored that you can add the hardener to Rustolium enamel and that simply isn't true in all cases. Remember, this is an experiment!

Now you may be right about the mineral spirits, that same thing crossed my mind also. If the 2612 is catalizing the mineral spirits that may be what is happening. Rustolium can be thinned with many different thinners, Acetone is also called out by the manufacturer and I'm planning on trying a batch thinned with that and adding the 2612 to see how it reacts. However, this time I will spray the cardboard box first.

But the bottom line here is that this is an oil base enamel and not Acrylic Enamel which the hardener is formulated for. So there may be some bad information getting spread around about the use of 2612 Wet Look Hardener.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny Graham,

I guess I didn't notice the word "experiment" in your original post. My general thinking is never mix anything from the shelves of your ACE hardware store with anything from the shelves of your automotive paint store.

I will bet your "experiment" would work if you used the Mar-hyde and Rustoleum again, but this time reduced it with synthetic enamel reducer from your automotive paint store in lieu of the "paint thinner".

Stuart

Well, I'm gonna be a wise a$$ here and a little sarcastic. Why would you want to put Rustoleum on your truck to start with? I wouldn't even put it on my tractor. :hammering: Seriously, why the Rustoleum? What is wrong with a Single stage paint? Are we just being cheap?

Please, someone set me straight on this practise.

Rustoleum is an oil based enamel that absorbs oxygen from the air for the curing process. The hardners or catalysts cure by an entirely different chemistry. It sounds like the hardener is not soluble in the Rustoleum. It may be sticky for a long time. I think I'd use stripper or thinner to remove it. I don't know the exact chemistry of the hardner but it's very unlikely it will do anything with the mineral spirits. It may not be soluble in the mineral spirits so you end up with "spots". Mineral spirits is a perfectly good thinner for Rustoleum, I've used it many times spraying things like outdoor furniture.

Well this is what I used to do about 20 years ago. I had a welding shop and one of the things I built were truck racks. I painted all of my finished work with a high quality rust inhibative industrial primer and top coated with a high quality rust inhibative industrial enamel. I purchased both from the same paint store.

When I painted racks I would reduce the enamel with synthetic reducer and add some Dupont hardener. The results were very good. Very hard and shiny. With a nice finish.

Officer you hit the nail on the head, cost and also availability! Rustolium $7.47 a quart vs $70.00 a quart for PPG paints. Now I'm gonna be a wise a$$ and a little sarcastic but that might not make any difference to you guys that are still working but to an old retiree like me, it do! You mean to say your putting that seventy-dollar a quart paint on your farm equipment?? Anyway, I taint about to use an expensive finish on a foot scraper.
Now don't ya go short changing Rustolium enamel. This debate has been discussed many many times here on the forum. For a running board, frame, axle, brake, steering and under hood components it's an excellent choice. Now if your hot rodding your bolt and want that show stopping finish everywhere on your trailer queen then I would have to agree with your choice of expensive automotive finishes.

Harold, what is the curing process for the Acrylic enamels? I’m gonna play with mixing some 2612 with some mineral spirits and see what the reaction is and then mix some with straight paint with no thinners and put it out to dry. I need to do a few controlled studies to get some concrete answers other wise it’s all guesswork. Oh, and by the way, paints been down for about 12 hours now and it’s all set up to the point where I can handle it so it is curing like it's supposed to.

Hi Lonnie, if I were going to keep the truck outside I would probably have used an undercoat also. But ya see, I'm puttin' the old gal out to pasture and the only time she's gonna see any inclement weather is if I get stuck out in a sudden shower on the way back from a swap meet. We’re gonna hibernate in the fall till the ice is out!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Do you know what these vehicles have in common??
Chevy Luv Truck
VW Beetle
Corvette
Volvo


They were painted not only w/Rustoleum or similar paint BUT they were done w/a roller

I know this came up in another thread but I got to say it here. I have a grandfather in law and Uncle who paint several tractors a month. ( most of them are painted to get them into a "selling mode" perfection not required. I know what they use because I have helped them and I have done it myself. The use rustoleum and they are a ferrell Calhoun dealer so they use it alot. They use Xylol (someone weigh in on why Xylol works better?) and they use hardener sometimes on the hoods to make them really shine and be hard. I have no idea what works chemically but I was told the hardner provided the oxygen that normally would come only from the air. (Is this true?)

But i have seen the results. . . And the stuff looked good. Maybe they are sneaking around and putting different stuff in the cans to fool me. Ya reckon?

Do NOT give my experience much weight. I am asking about what I've seen , not telling what works.

Man you guys gotta find another supplier, I buy OMNI single stage for $17-20 a quart at my parts store, PPG is higher but still less than $30 a quart for "normal"(no reds/oranges) colors

I never bought any OMNI Brian, didn't know you could buy automotive paint from PPG that cheap. I've bought a few quarts of DBU for the interior and it was upwards of $70. Maybe your getting a professional discount from your dealer since your in the business.

ZooKeeper, now even I find that hard to believe! I was advocating the use of Rustoleum for utilitarian purposes but not for a body finish, and a roller????

Harold can probably help us understand where Xylene enters the picture as a solvent. I believe that Xylol is just another name for Xylene. It is a common thinner for paints and varnishes which also dry by oxidation. I do know that it is a Benzene derivative and commonly substituted for Toluene for thinning laquers where slower drying is desired.
I don’t understand the chemistry but I can see the results of mixing combining compounds like 2612 with thinners and paints.

I would just like to say one last word in favor of Rustoleum, I already mentioned that besides the cost, that every hardware chains in the country and all the big box stores carry it. I know that some of you have had the same experience with PPG automotive paint dealers as I have. And I am at the point now when I need PPG paint I have to drive 46 miles one way to a dealer who treats me like they want my business. When I paint a fender, I’ll drive the 46 miles, when I paint an aircleaner I’ll drive to the hardware store.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

OMNI single stage is just that CHEAP! ! ! From what I have seen this paint is basicly watered down & takes more coats of paint to cover then it's higher cost counter part.

Denny have you looked at the mopar pages that those pictures came from??? You should read them & you'll be surprised at the quality of the paint jobs these folks got. The Beetle I pictured was painted about 5yrs ago & the owner of it also pained his 67 Charger over 7yrs ago & the paint still looks great. Yes you do have to wax it every year but if you want to make even a HIGH $$$ paint to last you should clean & wax it also.

Can't find the 1st read up on it, so here's the 2nd & 3rd

2nd tech tip
3rd tech tip

Depending on the paint you’re using Xylene (Xylol) may be as much solvent as it is thinner. Depending on what thinner you’re comparing it to it may be slower drying. If that’s the case I’d guess it will give you some additional leveling and gloss compared to a faster thinner. Xylene will have no direct effect on the chemistry of the paint only that which might come from changing the drying time.

Mar-Hyde 2612 is an isocyanate based hardener. I hope you had respiratory protection.

I’m not familiar with the chemistry of the acrylic enamels. You can get hardeners made specifically for the acrylic enamels although you may have to go to a paint store which sells industrial finishes.

There are hardeners made for the oil based paints that need oxygen to dry. Those are not isocyanate based hardeners.

Is everyone talking about the same Rustoleum paint? Based on the reaction you had I assumed you were using the alkyd-oil Rustoleum. However Rustoleum makes different kinds of paints including urethane based enamels and they also sell accelerators for their some of their paints. Some of their paints will probably cure with this hardener and some probably won’t

From what I can see the experts here are all pretty much saying the same thing "Unless your a chemist stick to the directions". I have to admit the difference between seeing something done and understanding the chemical reactions behind the sene are like daylight and dark.
I have been doing all my painting outside and only using the cloth masks. I have a good mask but the rubber has become hard ( I guess from repeated wipe downs with thinner) and my cartriges need changing. I see alot of masks for sale at Lowe's and wally world but what about the cartriges? What should they say? Like one example : I have a new set at home in the package that say "For organic chemicals"?

Even PPG Deltron was $26 for a quart today(sold to a walk-in customer w/no account),,I'll let ya'll in on a secret, the PPG & OMNI uses the same stuff in the mixing. Watered down, yes if you reduce it 50-50, but if you read the directions, you actually thin the OMNI less, 8 parts paint to 1 part reducer+1 part hardener. Paint is mostly clear w/some pigmnet added. I'd rather use it than Rustoleum any day.

Well, I guess it's whatever floats your boat!!

Frank

Very interesting Harold, thanks. Don’t know exactly what the base oil is all the can calls out is Rustoleum 7779, OIL-BASED. I would imagine that it is alkyd oil as I believe that’s what most of the oil based general purpose over the counter paints are.

Your now doubt right Brian on the cost of OMNI and Deltron, I wouldn’t know about those. The only PPG paint that I have used in the past is DBU and that, taint that cheap. And by the time you factor in the reducers or hardeners it still isn’t $7.50 a quart.

Well this started out just as a “head up” to anyone else that might want to try using the Mar-hyde hardener with over the counter enamel and has all most turned into a pi$$in’ match over which enamel each of us think is the best, god, it’s a good thing I didn’t bring up POR-15, ya know there are people that swear by that for all their black parts.
So I’m bout to drop out. I’m still gonna use the product we’ve been discussing for my frame and black components, running boards included in there. Only this time I’m gonna do just as Duke says, ""Unless your a chemist stick to the directions" yep, go strictly by what the directions on the can say and not try anything fancy, it's hard enough and wet-looking enough for my taste.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I dunno, but for my 40+ yr old driver junk ANY paint is an improvement!

Just happened to run across this old thread where everyone was
knocking Rustoleum. Well, here it is eight years and
17K miles later:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/161306550
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/161306551
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/161306552
and those running boards that were painted with Rustoleum
back in '07:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/161306627
they leveled out, got hard and have lasted just fine, cept
for where the alcoholic gas got spilt and left a spot on the
passenger side. No prime, painted right over the sandblasted
metal, no sign of any lifting even underneath where they've
seen a rain storm or tow on occasion.

dg

Easy touch ups due to the easy flow, and you can buy that paint everywhere.
BTW, when you gonna cad-plate that hideous black heater hose retainer?!
Your pal

Are you talking about that factory stock black heater hose
hold down clamp Carl????

DG

Yes? (He said sheepishly, as he knows not of what he speaks at times.)
Carl
Still your pal?

Sure, yours might have been plated from the factory, mine
wasn't. Maybe you have the deluxe model.

dg

I have the scavenged-from-the-junkyard model.

Oh...you mean the black ones.

dg

If by black you mean orange rust top to bottom, and side to side, then I don't know.
Carl