The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Newbie, Stuck Starter 37 pu 216

All first post: Truck slow to turn over and hard to start-6 volt. Bought truck about a year ago always slow turning over and required fuel after sitting to start, PO gave me spares, which looks like similar issues as there are 3 or 3 of the following, carbs and fuel pumps.

completed the following:
charged and tested battery-spins over slow, starts on ether
removed all battery cables and cleaned ground paint/oil off bell housing and reconnected, with fully charged battery spins much better, will start on ether and dies
continued to diagnose-while trying to start, engine will not turn over, moves by hand, starter sounds like it is not engaging
try to trouble shoot starter by removing-all cables and wiring removed, stomp starter disconnected.

[b]I have unbolted the starter but it will not come free of the motor moves toward radiator about 1/4-3/8 inch, not sure I should pry on the starter,
any help appreciated, thanks[/b]

Hy bugnut, welcome, if all of the stomp start linkage between the firewall and the starter has been disconnected there should be no reason once the two starter retaining bolts/nuts are removed that the starter should not come all the way out, dirt buildup in the bellhousing may be holding it, wiggle the outer end of the starter and it should come out. Slow cranking could be caused by many things, you have already eliminated some by cleaning all your wiring connections. It has been a long long time since six volt electrical systems were used on vehicles, todays battery cables are too small in diameter to flow twice as many amps which the six volt systems need to do their job efficiently, so if your cables do not look larger in diameter than your daily drivers cables then you need to get proper six volt size cables or double up on the ones you have. As I said slow cranking can be caused by many things, but I would start with the battery cables and see if that improves the situation, hope that helps.

When you said starter "sound like it's not engaging". Keep in mind that the pinion gear is manually engaged by your foot at the same time starter button is depressed by the mechanism. So go under hood and operate the lever by "hand" (a wooden stick, whatever) and see if starter gear is sliding into flywheel gear. Visually. Not by "sound". When the pinion engages the flywheel, starter spins..... the flywheel. I don't know which part of that operation is or is not happening. Visual is the only way.

You have several issues as you know. First you need to be sure motor spins reliably so as to tackle the no-start. Chances are your battery is no good. I would leave the starter in there until I was sure it was not a voltage supply or gear lever or starter button switch issue. Do you have a button switch mounted on top of starter? If so focus on that and the battery.

If you still must remove starter:
I assume the pinion gear is retracted. I assume all starter bolts removed. If so, just bang on it side to side, up and down with wood or rubber mallet. As said, it's rust locked or dirt locked probably. If it's all old 1937 stuff, everything will be a challenge and take special care. Save all parts to be rebuilt or matched at parts counter.
3B has given you direction on cables. That is important. The "success" you had could be the cable cleaning or could be a charged up battery floating to bad again. It could be the other items mentioned including a worn out starter. It does not sound like a bad starter "motor", the way you describe. Not sure. Study the symptoms a little more and report.

Sometimes it's a good idea to remove spark plugs while dinking around with starter. Be sure to place in neutral and block the wheels for safety. You don't want to screw around with it trying to start while you are getting it to crank nice. Starting is later. Keep key off. Put the ether away. If motor won't spin, fuel pump won't pump, carb won't work, spark won't generate, etc.

Just so everyone is clear, 1937 was the last year for a throw in style starter.
Linkage to engage the Bendix started in 1938.

1937 is also the last year for a carbon throwout bearing.
Because of the drag from that style throwout bearing it is best to start the engine in neutral with your foot off the clutch pedal.

Thanks Dave. I read up on it. All I could find was about the 37 cars. They had barrel type bendix drive. Mounted to the starter shaft. The Master models had "Starterators". Vacuum assisted lever actuated mechanism on accelerator pedal. They do say if there is trouble with starter motor it could very well be the lubrication has solidified. They say clean it off and lightly relube. They warn about not using a cleaning fluid on the whole bendix because there is lube inside that would be hard to replace?

Bugnut, please disregard the part about the lever operating the pinion and the button switch. Unless there has been a swap/modification. Glad Dave corrected me on that. Now sounds like maybe your truck has this early bendix drive (inertia actuated) that is hanging up on old grease/rust/dirt or something is broken. Maybe it is stuck in the out position and is the reason starter wont come out. Trying to help from far away but mostly guessing/brainstorming. It is very interesting to me. I like old mechanical. Long live the "STARTERATOR". I'll be back.

All after ready and searching I took a small prybar to the starter and after a few good wiggles and shoves it came free. The washer on the flywheel end of the starter looks like it may have been hung up on something. I was able to touch 12v power to it and the small gear extended. I put back onto the truck and tried to start again, the starter made the same sound again and the engine did not turn over. Just to insure there is nothing wrong elsewhere I marked the flywheel and then moved the truck in gear a few inches, resulting in the flywheel definitely moving. Just back from NAPA they have no way to bench test the starter will try to find a shop in Columbus area. I notice that the large screws covering the brushes were all buggered up and when I tried to unscrew a couple they were stuck fast. Thanks for the tips, I did check the od of the positive cable and it is over 1/2" in diameter, leads me to believe it is well over 2/0.

thanks bugnut

I had hard starting issues for a while and my truck was parked by the PO for at least 19 years before I got to fiddle with it. You mentioned using ether to try to start it.... Everything I've read here says that ether/starting fluid is about the worst thing you can put in an engine, especially for repeated uses on something that won't start... The most I did was dump a little gas down the carb, before I got the ignition sorted out.

You can run the starter on the bench. The bendix will kick out and the motor will spin. It won't be under load but you can see if it runs quiet. The starter is refurbished like any other motor. As necessary: Bearings/bushings replaced or lubed, commutator renew procedure, new brushes, brush wires and general dirt removal with a vacuum. I do not know 1937 but assume it is very basic motor. The bendix will be self explanatory as to it's workings. I love to dig into stuff like that.

What exactly is "made the same sound again" mean. What is the sound? What does the motor and bendix do?
What do you mean screws "covering" brushes?

Contact Stovebolt member Kennethw. He rebuilds motors like that. Go to "user list" at top of this page, find kennethw and you will see his email. He is a very helpful person and will advise. He has/had a starter rebuild company.
I wonder, if the starter/bendix is too far gone to rebuild, if a next generation mechanical foot stomp will fit?

Just curious: How is this starter motor switched?

All starter taken off and dropped at repair shop. Quick diagnosis before opening and disassembly by repairmen. He was able to turn the drive gear both directions by hand with no tools, while turning he was looking and the armature was stationary. Indicated something, possibly the woodruff key was sheared, will disassemble and repair cleaning and updating anything needed. This is why I was hearing the spinning sound and not having the motor turn over.
Will document the findings when complete.

Appreciate the tip for not using ether, I did get a small container to fill with gas and use instead.

Thanks all, bugnut

All starter returned and installed. It was repaired so the starter gear was pinned to the armature, I believe a screw. It turns the truck over fine. However truck will not start without gas down the carb throat.

Also there is a spacer of about 5/8 inch thickness on the starter is this unusual? Normal? How do you adjust the stomp starter linkage for this?

Leads to more questions...
Is the tank supposed to be vented?
Can I check for free fuel feed by loosening fuel line on tank side of fuel pump?
What carb should be installed? I have several to rebuild and it is currently wearing a carter w-1? is this correct? I have Rochester & Carter in the spares box.
No fuel filter to be seen, is fuel pump with integral filter suitable? Inline? Was there ever one originally?
Is there a recommended amount of fuel delivered per rev or is it strictly pressure?

Lots a questions, thanks for the help.