The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop New 235 for Chevy Apache Project

Project Parent Thread

Summary:
Bought a '58 Apache. Driving a smoking 235. Obtained a new 235 to swap in. This thread is about the new engine, determining if it needs a rebuild or repairs.

Casting Nos.
3739716
CON3 D250
Serial: F0502A

1960's Passenger Engine from a Bel Air. '848 Head. Appears to be original blue paint. I'm guessing this is what was called a "Blue Flame", although not the corvette variant.

I mounted it on a Harbor Freight 1 Ton engine stand. The 1/2 ton was way too short.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YV8x3jBsoEVU94NhDthP97agj9KnvCwv[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ErdfmO-5odoAWtlm9Wx1SNA6rbM6AtWl[/img]

Cleaned with Dollar Store Oven Cleaner and a hose
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ejwcbG66-8-QQBs_YmhEvDD0fKb3Wjzq[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UgDRNintdjD1jn_dpqkGpol-IGg9H1lg[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VyY728cRdfqJW3e4uX9FD7pW1roiI-TW[/img]

Popped the Valve Cover. There is some sludge, a sweet smell, and here are the pushrods and valve ends. The pushrods were gross.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SqqRxJ-4gXtLtfBshwipkA5QXwqBGjVd[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uStEP88gLDxHlv1IIlQcvsyXJSCOGWh8[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i1UL8gaiKowfI5LMRtIWwDYLfB9Z9ApI[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PE6wSNknLPpn_SNhHTPGwYLMzlSBoYd1[/img]

A clip from the second lifter is stuck to the plate
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kFTTOi6Q2ulb2FbPlRPs5pkLMF0tmnZ1[/img]

The lifters are stuck in the block, I figure they have crap on the bottom. How's best to get these out?
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y6EaxH8EDxXTeoTNAW19IErkGAm36_mA[/img]

More to come. Mainly, I plan to pull the head and have a look at the cylinders, and then the pan and have a look to see if it needs a rebuild, or if I see anything scary before I try to start it. Thanks!

QUESTIONS:
1. Tips on getting the lifters out?
2. I am cleaning everything as it comes apart. I'd like to paint things soon if all is well. Is automotive hardener and rustoleum ok for everything but the manifolds? How do you guys prep for paint?
3. I plan to re-use my head bolts. I have heard this is ok for stovebolts?

The lifters are probably worn concave on the bottom, resulting in a bell-mouthed condition that will make it difficult to pull them through the bore in the block. If so, both the cam and the lifters are junk. I'd suggest dropping the oil pan and using a long, thin punch to tap the lifters out from the bottom. Then use a straight edge such as the back of a new hacksaw blade to check the bottom of the lifters. If you can see daylight in the middle, pitch them, or have somebody with a lathe and a tool post grinder resurface the bottom of the lifters. There will be a corresponding radius worn onto the cam lobe, which also makes it unsuitable for further use unless it's reground.

Clean the head bolts on a wire wheel buffer and reuse them, no problem.
Jerry

That engine has a lot of sludge and it needs a complete teardown, just my opinion!

Its been a long time but it seems to me the lifters on that engine come out from the bottom.
George

George, are you saying that (with respect to high-pressure 235 car engines):
1. the hydraulic lifters only come out from/into the bottom (downwards)
2. the hydraulic lifters preferably come out from/into the bottom (downwards)
3. the hydraulic lifters cannot (or, should not) come out from the top (upwards)?

Are mechanical lifters handled differently compared to mechanical lifters?

Nope- - - -mechanical and solid lifters both can be lifted out into the pushrod cover area. If they're mushroomed on the bottom they're too far gone to re-use but they'll still come out of the topside with a little persuasion. Lisle used to sell a tool that would expand into the top groove after the snap ring was removed, then the lifter was coaxed out with a small slide hammer built in, but I'm not sure it will expand far enough to get a grip on a stovebolt six lifter. The one I used to use was made for V8 lifters which are smaller in diameter. I'm also not sure the open area above the lifters would accommodate the length of that tool. I've seen oldtimers grind the jaws of a pair of vise grips so they will grip a lifter body and use them to coax a stubborn lifter out of a bore, also.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7769248

Jerry

First, thank you Jerry, George, truckernix, tclederman for all your replies.

Got home, pulled the plugs. They look like they've been running too cold, but other than that they are all dry, no erosion or significant buildup.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1p02ACadoDvJ7cIkQ4Wy33YktwOqirlx-[/img]

Got the head off. There's a lot of carbon but I think the valves look ok. Don't see any chips or cracks and they seem to seat well. I don't have a compressor tool, and I can't find one locally so I can't get the valves out yet. But I am pretty happy with the head I think.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Z4x6An_0k_SLAU253kyPD6874ERS1yux[/img]

Here is a map of the head bolts as were in the engine. I'm wondering if one of the manifold bolts was swapped, as they were stamped, and the M bolts were close, but not exactly like the F bolts.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=12xW11sslKvvJPwsnCwwIAFKEFIWgef9A[/img]

The cylinders look good. I don't see any crosshatching, though it's present in the bottom below the rings. The walls are smooth. I cannot feel anything with my fingernails. There is a lip at the top, thinner than a fingernail, maybe 2-3 thousandths. Here is an example of the walls
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cBPgDThn46pcaulr1vDetUZg1OeP1_66[/img]

Here's the bottom of the engine with the pan off
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SEPGyDbgSqgcZ0G7Yz2uXvCeztUM4vWV[/img]

Here's the camshaft
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GNA_FH81R0Oz4_5Pzcb5MBXrBXhMoT70[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r0uai4e-sIWB2EucyibkqvwKpVj8SlZl[/img]

Here's the bottom of the lifter that was stuck. Sorry, this was the best angle I could get. By the way, someone suggested in another thread to try a hose clamp around the lifter. That was pretty effective. I think if I'd been more persistent I would have been successful, but I was pulling off the pan anyway, and decided to wait. I can easily access them from the bottom and will probably tap them out if it comes to that. That tool, Jerry, would have worked in my situation also. I didn't know of that thank you!
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=17xkXpmZOJP7Fi1xCvz27exhV8jFh4RvR[/img]

Here's the sludge in the bottom of the pan. There is some grey precipitate, but it was buried and undisturbed. This is fine, but sandy.
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1B-ql6ZGU6SaA0RMqIAC66-0TmWmKu3-b[/img]

Well. I have only rebuilt engines in event of a failure, and that was 15 years ago and my Dad was in charge. I have no experience that tells me what to do here. If this was a farm truck, or something I planned to just putter around town I would just clean it up, reassemble and drive it. But my wife and I want to drive it to Louisville, KY for the NSRA nationals which is 550 miles away next year. Of course we plan to make many short trips first.

QUESTIONS:
1. I am really interested in what you guys think about this engine, and what you'd do with it.
2. Is there any point in pulling the piston rod caps or should I just leave well enough alone?
3. How in the world do I clean this gunk out?

Well, you're partway there- - - - -have you checked the bottom of the lifters for wear like I suggested? I see at least one cam lobe with wear at the edges, and another one with what appears to be rust pits. Depending on your time and budget considerations, it would be to your advantage to go ahead and do a full rebuild, but that's going to involve at least a few weeks and around a thousand dollars worth of parts or more. If you get into cylinder boring, crankshaft grinding and cam and lifter replacement, the parts cost will at least double, and some fairly pricey machine shop work will also be needed. By all means, inspect the rod and main bearings for wear and oil clearance. Once I get as far into an engine as you are by now, I almost always go for the full rebuild, but I'm able to do at least 75% of my own machine work. About the only thing I have to farm out is crankshaft regrinding.
Jerry

Would I be crazy to just clean it, put it back together and run it? I think the engine that's in it (and currently smoking but "recently rebuilt") should be closer to new than this one. I might have more success with that one.

Its pretty dirty, but that state of affairs is also pretty typical for a 60 or so year old 235. I would look at the bearings and see what the condition looks like. If they are not terrible, I am not sure there is any downside to scrubbing that motor up really well, putting it back together and seeing what it does other then the time, effort, and a gasket set. These motors are pretty rugged in that respect and a lot have run in a lot worse condition.

the rub for you is that you are looking for the best of both worlds, scrubbing it up, putting it back together and reliability that would be sufficient to drive to the NSRA nats. You might get it you might not.

Well, the other reality is I'm in school and have no money right now. But I do have three 235 engines and I have access to Modern engines for cheaper than I can rebuild this 235. If I really want to rebuild this thing properly I'll have to wait until next year. The other engine I have was supposed to have a full rebuild and has less than a thousand miles on it since it's been rebuilt. The previous owner is a pretty competent fellow and it only started smoking after I got it. So if I can get this one to get me around town and the driveway I think I have a better chance with the other engine.