The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Question On Servicability of 20 Inch Rims

Hey All,

Question on the rear duals on my 52 6400. These are the 3 piece, AR type I think, two of the tires are good and two are shot. Contacted the local Cenx in the next town. Guy tells me the 8.25x20s are almost impossible to get. I looked online and they are around so not sure where his info is coming from. He has two so I hauled the rims and old tires over there. I had asked to have them break the wheels down so I could paint them first but the tire guy refused, said there couldn't be any paint in the groove where the snap ring sits. Ok told him I would deal with it. Then tells me my 3 piece rims are split rims and are the "widow makers". Tried to explain they weren't but informed me he had worked on truck tires for years and knows. Still will put the tires on, fine. I got the other two home and cleaned them but found a crack in one between bolt holes. The guy at the shop told me the two he is working on have worn bolt holes, I don't think the holes are bad but are worn a little. How big a deal is that for an old truck that won't ever haul much? Also I pulled a wheel off my parts truck to replace the cracked one, it has worse wear on some of the holes. Just wondering what everyone thinks of the oblong worn holes in these wheels. Obviously I don't want to use one that is cracked, doesn't look like it is cracked all the way thru but still is a problem. Thanks for any advice guys.

I believe the wheels on your truck are hub centric. The worn holes are probably from loose lug nuts. Install the tires, Install the wheels, torque them and give them a good looking over everyone in a while!

My$.02 worth..

Thanks, I was kind of thinking this also. This thing was probably a commercial gravel truck originally but became a farm truck many years ago. I worked for farmers as a kid and they overload these grain trucks bad. I think the overloading tends to make the lug nuts work loose and you end up with damaged holes. The tire guy thought they would be ok as long as I didn't drive it much. Thing is the cracked rim is no doubt worse, I have some other wheels I am going to have to look at as the one from my parts truck is in a little worse shape as far as the bolt holes. Think I have maybe 3 more out in my one building and have 2 on the front of the parts truck.

How do you make a split rim widow maker, out of a 3 piece, snap ring wheel. Sounds like that tire man of many years, has been misinformed.

I know, he informed me that ALL these multi piece rims are split rims and are dangerous. They won't work on the real split rims of course but will work on these AR type. That is kind of typical, know it all and you don't know nothing. I took a wheel off my junk parts truck and looked at it. Guess what? That one I think IS an RH-5, for sure is 2 piece and looks like the picture in the shop manual of the "optional" 2 piece rim. That old parts truck has another one I think on the front. I found a good AR type I got off another scrap truck in a SD junk yard several years ago. Took that back to the Cenex today and will have the good tire on the cracked rim put on it. Cleaning in prep for painting now, lot of dirty work.

Badly rusted, worn, or damaged wheels with a removable bead ring can be just as deadly as a RH-5, especially if one is a bit careless when assembling them. If the wheels you're using have tapered lug nuts with a corresponding bevel in the wheel, oblong holes are a definite problem. If the lug nuts fit flat against the wheel with a built-in thrust washer, a slightly elongated hole isn't as serious, but they need to be checked for tightness frequently. Elongated holes on a drive axle will be more of a problem, as the torque load of accelerating and braking will let the lug bolts move back and forth no matter how much the nuts are tightened. If you have a choice, put the better-condition wheels on the drive axle(s).
Jerry

Yes the AR type rims can be really bad too if they are damaged from what I understand or not put together right. I won't mess with them myself, I don't have the necessary tools and are tough for an older guy to mess with. I guess some of these tire guys consider any of these multi piece rims split widow makers but they will still work on them. The ones I have are the hub pilot type so aren't maybe as critical with slightly worn bolt holes as it would be in the case of wheels with the tapered holes. The holes are only slightly worn at least. All the wheels I have seem to have some type of wear on these holes so can't switch wheels around. My front wheels have the 7.55s on them and the back are 8.25. The tire guy seemed to think the slightly worn holes wouldn't be a big issue as long as the truck isn't used a whole lot. It will probably never haul any real loads either. These were on really tight when I first started working on it, it took my 3/4 drive 40 inch breaker bar and a 4 foot pipe to break them loose. The old farmer even had 2 nuts on some of the bolts, ended up replacing the lug bolts and nuts. As I posted above many of these old grain trucks up here were badly overloaded, am thinking that led to the wheel issues. I found one wheel I took off a 51 6400 in a junk yard down in SD that looked pretty good so am using that to replace the one that is cracked around a bolt hole. I will have to watch these I guess.

Another wheel question: I have noticed two different types of these AR rims. One has a flat front ring and the other has a rounded ring. This is the ring that goes around the main rim and is locked onto it with the snap ring. My truck has two of these round style on the front and the flat type on the back. My parts truck is a mix of both types and even a couple of what I think are RH-5s. I am wondering if the one having the rounded profile was intended for the front for appearance sake? I have never seen anything about this difference.
Thanks guys.

If you do enough buffing of the wheels with a wire brush to find stamped names and numbers, you'll probably discover different manufacturers' names. Just don't try to mix and match components from different wheels- - - -the fit is critical and different makers' parts usually don't work well together.

The quick way to identify the RH5's is to look for a flat band about 2" wide down where the wheel barrel meets the center, and there's no obvious removable ring where the tire sidewall meets the rim on either side. There's no danger about deflating them and dismantling the two halves to remove the tires, but the pieces should be defaced to the point they can't be assembled again. I like to torch out a big chunk of the mating joint. Those rims make good anchor bases for bench grinders, anvils, etc.
Jerry

I did notice some markings on the 3 rims I have done so far, I think "RH" and maybe "RW". I know you can't mix the parts of these rims, the tire guy mentioned that also.

The pictures are of some different wheels I have, the first one is of one of the rear wheels I am in the process of painting. It shows the flat ring around the outside. The next is of one of my front rims on my truck that I cleaned and painted some time back. This one has the curved ring instead of the flat one. These two are the ones I was wondering about in the second part of my last post, was wondering if the difference was the curved one was for the front because it looks a little nicer? The 3 and 4th pictures are of the rim I think is the RH-5 split one off my junk parts truck, front and rear. The last is of the left front on the same truck, it looks different that the last one but is not an AR with the lock ring.








https://imgur.com/a/rVnDDQO

The black and red wheel is definitely an RH-5 (widowmaker). The wheel at the bottom of the sequence is an oddball- - - -it has a very narrow locking lip on the removable bead, with no extra lock ring, with a couple of milled-out spaces that won't be visible until the tire is deflated and the beads are hammered away from the flanges. To remove/install the ring, part of it must be pried over the lip of the main wheel and hammered sideways on and off. That style of lock ring was most commonly used on the 18" tube type wheels used on 1 ton vehicles. My 1959 Chevy 3800 had them installed and they're VERY susceptible to rust damage to the extremely narrow locking lips. 20" wheels with that type of lock ring are pretty safe, but ONLY if the locking grooves are rust-free and unworn.
Jerry

Look around on farm trucks in your neighborhood for 22.5's, then you won't have to fool with split rims anymore. Started in late '50's on 1.5 ton trucks.

Ed

Ok I was thinking the one wheel was an RH-5. I was trying to figure out what the other one (the last one pictured on the LR of the parts truck) was by looking at the scan from the old Budd catalog without any luck. The remaining three on that truck are the AR type. That particular wheel is susceptible to rust damage making it unsafe? This has turned into a good discussion of wheels and is informative. I am still wondering however if anyone has any idea what the deal is with the two different style rings on the AR wheels like I showed in the first two photos.

The problem is I have already spent a good deal on new 20 inch tires for these wheels. Also I really don't know of any 1.5 ton trucks from that era that are around here. The farmers for many years have used either semis or trucks made from stretched semi tractors with a 3rd tag axle installed along with a large box and hoist. My 20 inch AR wheels aren't in too bad shape and seem to still be useable for my purposes which will be occasional driving short distances and probably not hauling too much. Thanks for the info however. Like I said above good discussion with a lot of good info.

The wheel with the single piece removable bead ring and no lock ring was considered to be a "light duty" item, and the heavier-built wheels were probably an upgrade. It's difficult to describe the assembly/disassembly process without a video clip or pictures. Since the locking lips are relatively thin, proper assembly and careful inflation is a must, and the fit of the lips is prone to get loose and dangerous from decades of rust, and abuse while changing tires. Clean. good condition wheels are pretty safe, but any wheel 50+ years old that's probably had dozens of tire changes has a pretty big risk factor involved.

There is also a version of the removable-bead wheel that has a very heavy bead flange, a split, and no locking ring. That one is disassembled by simply spiraling the lock ring off with a pry bar, and reassembled by spiraling it back on with firm taps with a bead breaking hammer. Of all the sectional wheel designs, that one's probably the easiest one for a tire guy to work with, and the least likely to get assembled wrong.

Any tire shop that refuses to work on split rims is not a real tire shop.

Refusal to work on split rims demonstrates a level of incompetence & lack of experience that would make me run the other way.

Any tire shop that says they can't find 8.25 X 20 tires, tubes or flaps is again, incompetent in their field.

Any tire shop that says that split rim components cannot be painted are out of their minds !! as painted components actually prevent the rust that they claim disqualifies a rim to be worked on.

A major Correction on the term "Widow Makers" rims is needed here as the 2 piece split rims are inherently more dangerous than the 3 piece lock ring rims....
as the 3 piece rims are far more reliable & safe to work with than the 2 piece "widow maker " rims.

Any tire shop that labels a 3 piece split rim as a " widow maker " is a shop that knows absolutely nothing about split rims.


We have 4 trucks from 1.5 to 2 ton that all run 8.25 X 20 tires on the original 3 piece split rims & we have never experienced a failure with any of the rims.

Breaking down & assembling the 3 piece 20'' rims is a piece of cake.

Don't get me wrong.

Split rims can be dangerous but..... ONLY if you ignore these basic common sense safety procedures for them.

NEVER mix & match incompatible main rims, lock rings or outer flange rim rings.

Any rim component that has excessive rust or pitting should be thrown into the scrap pile.

Always have a healthy respect respect for any 3 piece split rim but, no more respect than you would give to a non split rim.

Failure to follow these simple guidelines can result in this consequence....

In the owners manual they make it look pretty straight forward, like anybody back in the day could do it by the side of the road. I found my original jack, wrench, and tire iron under the seat, along with the missing key that I had already replaced. I've done thousands of modern tires, but no split rims but willing to learn, and give it a try. I don't know what they used for an air pump in the middle of nowhere back in the day?

The manual shows breaking down the three piece rims and the old split rims. Thing is they can be dangerous if they are not in good shape or not assembled right. I actually knew a kid many years ago who was killed by an exploding tire, young kid working for a farmer. Not a truck tire but a combine tire, no idea what type of wheel this was, happened in the mid 60s. Was standing on it airing it up and was literally blown thru the roof of the local service station. I found one of my 3 piece rims was actually cracked between two bolt holes. Couldn't see the crack until I cleaned the inside of the rim.