The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop '52 COE to "new"1 ton transplant questions

So I'm going to put my '52 COE on an '82 GMC C3500 dually chassis. I'm planning on drop spindles, PROBABLY air ride, and PROBABLY a 4 link rear end. My question is what size tires do you folks usually use when you do that? What do you use for control arms? For a frequently driven tow vehicle, what do you have the ride height set at? Thanks for your help?

22.5's fill the wheel wells properly, but part of that depends on axle bolt pattern. If 8 on 6.5" , no 22.5 wheels are made to fit-don't even think of Al wheel adapters. If 5/10, then perhaps you have 19.5's, which will work, but look undernourished. 22.5's with that bolt pattern came on late '50's GM farm trucks as first tubeless tires, somewhat hard to find, though. 19.5's are also made to fit 8 on 6.5" bolt patterns, none were offered as factory, so aftermarket items, so expensive.

Torque arms off semi trailer rear axles come in lengths, are inexpensive($40. ea. at last check) mount on .875" bolt, which is kind of large but easy to make spacer. Kelderman uses them, look up some of his designs.

How does that front axle/wheel width work out with that setup?

Ed

Hey Ed, thanks for the info, it's a big help. I was more wondering about tire size, not wheel size. For wheels, I was thinking about getting some medium duty 20" steel wheels and getting the bolt pattern redrilled (I've had that done before), but then I might just stay with the 16" I have already. When I try to sketch things up, the stock tires look really big. So I was wondering if I'm using the right size, or my scaling is way off. I haven't checked how the cab will look on the c3500 chassis yet. The COE cab is a TON shorter than I thought, so I'm in the process of trying to do the aforementioned sketch before I start hacking things.

The cab and fenders fit over original tires that were about 36-38” tall.
A 9R22.5 tire is 38” tall, they would fit difficult to find wheels from some 56-59 Chevy 1.5 tons, 10 lug on 7.25 pattern. Some newer GM trucks like the 3500HD (I-beam front axle) and some P30 and similar chassis used this pattern with I-beam or independent front.

An 8R19.5 tire is 32” tall and fits easy to find wheels with same 10 lug or normal 8 lug on 6.5”, 1 ton pattern. Ed wasn’t sure these existed factory/stock in 8 lug, but they do, I have a set on my 1 ton GMC.

The above is all about dual type wheels.

Thanks Grigg, that's what I was looking for. Anyone else do a COE cab transplant onto a hotrodded, lowered, one ton dually chassis? I don't want to do a slant back and I'm thinking of putting Cummins in the stock location. Thanks again for everyone who has stopped by.

What are you planning on towing? Some of the suspension modifications you're contemplating might not play well with a trailer with any kind of weight onboard. Suspension and steering geometry in general on a lowered and air-bagged vehicle can get pretty challenging, and when a trailer gets into the mix, problems sort of tend to expand exponentially. Be sure to do your geometry homework before you get very deep into the project.
Jerry

You would be better off channeling the body to lower it rather than altering the 3500 chassis.

Gents, thanks for your input and advice. I was thinking of doing a spindle drop on the front and have the bags set so they were in the middle of their travel at that ride height, and completely bagging the rear. My plan is to haul a 35'-40' fifth wheel along with the regular load of fine crushed concrete with the dump box loaded for the driveway. I'm also thinking the body drop is part of the equation, dependent on how the drivetrain sits in it.

I'd be VERY reluctant to try pulling loads like that with anything other than a new, purpose-built truck with a LOT of factory engineering in its pedigree. You're getting into at least medium-duty Diesel territory with loads like that, and stopping and steering a rig like that with some sort of home-brewed suspension system could get deadly dangerous not only to you, but everybody who shares the road with you. A commercial vehicle enforcement officer would probably get writer's cramp in his ticket-writing hand if you ever got stopped and inspected.
Jerry

It would seem to me that a drop spindle does nothing to the steering and suspension geometry. That's why I chose that method. Lowering the back changes your driveline angle a little but not much else. All you have really done is lower the center of gravity a little, I don't know a lot about stovebolts but I know a little about towing. A modern 1 ton dually doesn't even know a 40' fifth wheel is back there.

Modern as in brand new or close is one thing, I believe the donor under consideration is from the early 80's, modern in comparison to a 52 truck, but nothing special.

I hear you loud and clear. This is not my first build, but it will be by FAR my most extensive, by leagues. The one thing I have learned from previous builds is to stay close to home, and test a ton. Test, test, and test some more. I'm not the first to do this, so I hope people will chime in when they see what I'm doing and give constructive feedback. And I'll tell you my neighbor tows a 36' with his 3/4 ton Chevy Duramax 4x4, so I don't think this will be outside the scope of my, or the truck's abilities. So stay tuned, and please be open with your concerns.

And that's what I'm hoping will make this a success. As far as driveline/chassis go, I'm not doing anything new or radical. There will be a ton of changes, but most of them will be as simple as a spindle change. Air rides have been done elsewhere, and the challenges are well known. So I'm pretty sure I have this. But I will look forward to hearing from everyone.

You're right that my chassis donor isn't new, but my Granddad hauled a 32' 5th wheel, and a kit car with his '73 3/4 ton Ford This donor is a 1 ton, so I would hope it can handle the load better. And I do plan on making upgrades to the brakes (rear discs), and suspension (bushing and air ride), so it should be good to go. But do me a favor, and keep me honest.

There's not much difference between 3/4 and 1 ton drivetrain, even today. It's basically springs, and sometimes brakes. The frame is still reasonably light in comparison to a medium duty truck rated to comfortably handle the loads you describe. I suspect the 82 frame is also less substantial than the equivalent frame today.

Before jumping in with a particular donor chassis and then upgrading this and that, look and see if there's an ever better donor with fewer required upgrades.

For example you're looking at a 1 ton with a 14 bolt rear and adding disc brakes, but a new AAM axle, the replacement for the 14 bolt comes with disc brakes. So the AAM axle, or the whole newer truck, may be the better option. Also consider that "disc brakes" aren't all equal. A Crosley car came with disc brakes, but they're hardly suitable for a 1 ton truck. I believe that the readily available kits for adding "disc brakes" to a 14 bolt are based on old 3/4 ton front components, they don't look that special to me. If you're still into adding disc to a 14 bolt there's some info a few post down in this link on adding the later model, larger, AAM disc brakes.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread.../14-bolt-axle-swap-info.html#Post1249600

Back to upgrading axles, take a look at this truck I didn't build, but I did swap axles.
https://goo.gl/photos/5fvttZyaSsDGudw4A
The original axles, gears, and brakes weren't up to the engine and transmission's capability (swapped in decades ago). I wanted better gear ratio, taller tires, and serious brakes, which I found with axles from an, at the time, new model Freightliner medium duty truck rear axle and a TopKick front axle. I don't recall the rotor diameter and thickness but they were way larger than any pickup truck, and had massive calipers.
The whole thing when done was much better, but then look at the frame it's now quite spindly in comparison to the rest of the truck... Ended up being more drivetrain altogether than the frame was good for.

In my opinion, you're asking more than an old 1 ton should be asked to do, even if it could. A medium duty chassis would be a better fit capacity wise. Some have used import cab over trucks as donors, that's worth a look and they can be narrower which is a help.
Otherwise if you're stuck with old GM sort of 1 ton stuff.... look a little larger at the P30 (and similar modles) and the 3500HD all with the 10 lug pattern on 7.25" bolt circle, these trucks come with hefty disc brakes front and rear. My 2 ton has axles under it from these chassis, and original frame, which is also well worth considering.

Look a little beyond the basic alignment angles such as caster, camber, and toe. Dropped spindles affect such things as roll center, roll couple, scrub radius, and Ackerman. Making a simple change such as going to a different anti-roll bar, or changing its position can induce all sorts of unpredictable handling characteristics in a turn.

Rear suspension design also does a lot more than just hold up the back end of the vehicle, and rear roll centers, etc. can have a lot of influence on handling. Let me strongly suggest that you read everything you can about suspension and steering design before you start whittling and welding. You'll probably save yourself a lot of time and money and end up with a reliable, safe vehicle that will do exactly what you want if you make it work on paper first. The round track race cars I built for a few decades went through that exact process before we ever put a torch or a saw to the first piece of metal.

Straight ahead driving probably won't be affected, but getting into an unexpected tight turn with a loaded trailer isn't going to be the time to discover your engineering wasn't quite as good as you thought. Now, pretty soon, a few people who wear their feelings on their sleeve are going to accuse me of being an unfeeling old goat who spends every day looking for somebody's bubble to burst, and their agonized screams of anguish will be something to behold. We should really consider having an official Stovebolt.com crying towel for those guys. I spent 30-something years teaching high school kids who had been abandoned by the public education system to be productive, taxpaying members of society as ASE-certified auto mechanics, so those comments don't bother me at all.

As long as you go into your project with an open mind and a willingness to at least listen to the advice of some of us who have spent a lifetime making a living in the automotive business, we'll get along just fine. Whether of not you choose to heed that advice is up to you.

If you're one of those guys who get their lacy drawers in a wad anytime something other than fawning praise for your project comes your way, go ahead and think whatever you will of me. Just take note of the sprig of mistletoe attached to my shirt tail!
Jerry

Guys, don't worry, you haven't hurt my feelings.....yet. The last P30 I worked on was a straight axle, and I'd rather have the comfort and handling of an independent front end. Same with the Isuzu's. That being said, both of those were trucks from at least ten years ago. I did a similar static drop to an '03 F150 that was used heavily as a truck, but I know not hauling loads this heavy. And the current donor chassis is currently being used to haul the aforementioned crushed concrete loads. I figure I'll have to back half the frame and plan on making it out of 3x5 tubing, and boxing the front half, so I'm not worried about the frame taking the loads. But you mentioned brakes, so I think I'll check into what the current 1-ton's use for brakes.

I hear you Hot Rod Lincoln. I've read (and studied) all of Carroll Smith's books. Do you have any suggestions on other reading material? I'll admit this will be my first foray into air ride and heavy duty suspensions, but after talking to some of my friends who haul big trailers, I think it's the best way to go. And I have done some suspension design in the past (a couple of FSAE cars), but nothing in this realm. So, please keep checking and pushing back to keep me honest. Constructive criticism is welcomed and appreciated.

"Unfeeling old goat." That's funny right there! Only ones who have come to that conclusion about HRL, have never met him in person, or at least shared a Private Message with him.
His posts will contain some "tough love" in them from time to time, but it is still love just the same. The dude genuinely cares enough to help us.
Drive your Stovebolt within a hundred miles of him and have a breakdown. I'll bet he'll drop whatever he is doing to help you out.

Carl
One brain cell short of having two to rub together.

Carl,

I agree, I called him just the other day. Amazing man, amazing amount of knowledge, great teacher and gives it to you straight (good or bad).

Chris

He sure helped me out when I was in a bind.

Ed

Hey guys, I totally get HRL and welcome his critiques. And I so get where he's coming from. I need some one to keep me honest.

I just bought a 34 ft fifth wheel yesterday. Just so you know it weighs 8925 lbs. My 2013 f250 SD 4 x 4 pulled it just fine for the 200 miles I've driven it. No more living in hotels for me.

Are you running a Powerstroke or gas motor? And just so you know, I'm totally jealous of your recent purchase.

Y'all better watch out, talking about Ferd trucks in a GMC/Chevy forum will draw the wrath of many! lol

Sorry about the f*#d thing. I guess the f250 thing got me. I have the big gas motor. It's the 12mpg model. I have the tow package also. These 5th wheels have their own brakes. I like to set my gain so they pull just a little.

I just joined the group and have started on a 52 COE 5 window. Going to use a 1ton chevy single cab 4 speed. At first we talked about moving the cab. Now we are talking about moving the drive line and suspension to the original 52 frame. Considered these ideas in this forum. Hopefully it will be a safe truck to pull a fifth wheel camper in the future.

He sure helped me out.

Ed