The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline Brakes are weak and Emergency brake only works in forward not reverse

Well, looks like Im going to have to deal with some brake issues as my brakes generally seem soft and weak.
Checked the fluid resoirvoir and it was about 25 percent full. I filled it with dot3 and closed it back up.
Went around and looked at the brake lines, brakes, backing plates and bleeders and I dont have any leaks that that I can see.
The bleed screws look really rusted, so Im doubtful that I will be able to bleed this stepvan without destroying the screws.
I broke a bleeder screw on my jeep and its been sitting ever since.
When I was checking things, I also noticed the stepvan can be pushed backwards when the parking brake is engaged but if you try to push it forward the parking brake works.
Anybody know why the parking brake only works in one direction?
Im a lttle bummed right now. I have done alot of work to this stepvan to get it going and I dont really want to have to buy new brakes and redo the brakes also?

One of the key things that I have learned about brakes is to expect the worst. A lot of patch work and poor repairs could have been performed over a 50 year period. My recommendation is to remove all wheels/drums and inspect the brakes carefully. It's OK to give it a once over to look for obvious things as you have done but it doesn't tell much of the story. I have actually removed 3 drums and found pristine brakes and the 4th one to be totally shot. Good brakes and a properly adjusted parking brake should hold in both directions.
In many cases on vehicles that sit for long periods of time brake linings become too hard and loose their friction coefficient to work properly.
Fred

Sounds like you have a hot wet mess based on your description of your brakes.
My opinion is that you only have 2 choices.
1) Take the vehicle to a reputable brake shop and let them diagnose everything and make appropriate repairs.
2) Replace ALL of the brake components yourself. This is what I generally do with older vehicles. Nickle and diming brake systems is a false economy, and dicey if you are new to brake work. Peace of mind is priceless.
Carl

Carl's choice #2 is the better/best and less expensive choice (and, will make it easier for you to sleep soundly at night).

Start putting penetrating oil onto those bleeders! While you think about choice 2. New lines are not expensive along with new hardware. Cheaper than having a sudden more expensive stop caused by another object! If I can do it, you can do it! Think safety! Especially your family and other families on the road.

Chris

I have freed up badly rusted/corroded bleeder screws by heating them with a torch, but only after removing the wheel cylinder and stripping it down to a bare casting. Once the bleeder is out, replace it- - - -they're usually readily available and cheap, but so are complete, new wheel cylinders.
Jerry

"Anybody know why the parking brake only works in one direction?"

Could it be that the primary and secondary brake shoes are reversed/backwards on the rear drums?

"I don't really want to have to buy new brakes and redo the brakes also."

I would think that, at a minimum, you should pull the drums and check out the condition of the drums and shoes. You probably will have to some disassembly to remove the frozen bleeders. One is bound to break. BTDT.

Keep up the good work the step van looks great.

SimS

The parking brake problem is simple- - - - -adjust the brakes. There's just enough contact between the shoes and the drums to make the Bendix self-applying function work in the forward direction, but not in reverse because the shoes are installed correctly with the shorter lining in the front. You're running out of cable length before the shoes get firmly in contact with the drum because the shoes are out of adjustment.

Bite the bullet and do a proper brake job- - - -the rest of us who have to share the road with that deathtrap will be grateful!
Jerry

Thank you all for the help!
Nice day today, so I drove to the high school parking lot right next to me to see if I could get the brakes to tighten up by driving in reverse and braking. I read on lugnutz awesome website that the star tightener should be able to tighten up my brakes automatically when driven in reverse. Unfortunatly, it didnt work.
Looks like I'm going to have to learn how to do brakes cause like everyone said, it needs to be safe for me and my fellow bolters before I get on the road.
Will update this as I proceed with the brake journey.
Link to my build blog with a couple photos at the school for anyone interested below:
https://1964chevyp10.blogspot.com

Self-adjusters only work if they're well-maintained and clean, and you come to a FULL STOP every time you apply the brakes in reverse. It will require dozens of stops to tighten up brakes that are as loose as yours appear to be, as it takes 20 stops to turn the adjusting wheel one turn- - - -assuming it takes up one notch every time you stop in reverse.
Jerry

It is a lot better to adjust the star nuts manually than to try to do it backing up. You will know when you have all 4 wheels adjusted to the same point. And like Jerry said, they only adjust if they are well maintained. Until you pull off the wheels, you don’t know what you have.

Lee.

OK pulled one wheel off and found this.
Pictures at link below
https://1964chevyp10.blogspot.com

I was able to shine a light into the small hole in the front of drum and rotate the drum to where I did see an adjuster at about 6 oclock.
Also saw what looks like a brake hold down spring just floating around loose inside the bottom of the drum.
Looked at the backing plate and the pin that holds the spring holder piece is gone so 1 of the shoe holders is obviously not on.
Started wacking the drum with a rubber mallet and I guess its rusted to the hub. Don't see any space at all between the axle part (end flange piece) and the hole in the center of the drum? Not even a little crack?
Going to soak it with WD 40 on the lugs and the pre-drilled out holes of the face of the drum/hub intersection.
Don't have a drum puller so going to soak and the wack it with a rubber mallet and see if that works.
If not I guess I'll have to buy a puller.
I'm a little concerned that the axle end flange is holding the drum on.
Am I correct to assume that the axle flange is not over the drum but just very tight to the inner circle of the drum itself?

The hub center is what keeps the drum concentric with the axle- - - -the drum is a tight slip fit over that part. Try smacking the flat part of the drum between the lug bolts HARD with a steel hammer, not a soft mallet. Just aim well so you don't damage the lug bolt threads. The shock of the hammer sandwiching the drum center plate between it and the axle flange will usually jar the rust loose. Be sure the brake shoe adjustment is backed off as far as possible. If you do have self adjusting brakes, it will be necessary to use a small punch or screwdriver to release the self-adjuster before trying to back the adjuster star wheel up. Drum pullers just bend and distort the drum center- - - -use one only as a last resort and be prepared to discard the drum. Good luck!
Jerry

Dont be bummed, I started from scratch on my brakes....having zero experience. I learned a lot, built confidence in my ability to service them if needed, and everytime an old guy pumps my brakes they say "wow! The brakes are good in this one"

You would do yourself a great service to pull EVERYTHING and replace with new. You will be happier in the long run.

Appreciate the info on the concentric H.L. and as you said windy I'm building confidence.
GOOD NEWS and want to thank NDkid275 for the tips which led me to get the rear drums off!!
Photo of brake in link below:
https://1964chevyp10.blogspot.com

To sum it up: (1964 Chevy P10)12 bolt rear axle that I believe is stock from 1963/4 with 6 lugs for the wheels. The measurement of the diameter to the outside of the shoes is approx 11inches. The width of the shoes is approx 2 inches.
1) brake shoe holder gone on one side
2) star adjuster does not turn
3) no locking mechanism on the star nut adjuster? Is this OK as maybe its older style of brakes before self adjusters or are the self adjuster bits missing?

So, at minimum, I am in the market for new shoes, and a hardware/spring kit for the rear brakes. Based on my brakes is there a particular vender that would be good to buy from?
Any other suggestions/ideas are greatly appreciated as this is my first time doing brakes.

Those brakes predate the self adjusting style. The notches of the star wheel are retained by contact with the spring across the top, so no lock is needed. There should be an oval slot in the backing plate behind the star wheel that allows a big screwdriver or a bent "brake adjusting spoon" to be inserted to do the adjusting. The adjustment procedure is as follows- - - -tighten the brakes against the drum until a firm drag is felt- - - -not completely locked up- - - -by turning the tire. Then back off 10 notches of the star wheel. DO NOT listen to advice like "back off until the wheel turns freely"or "Keep backing off on the adjustment until no drag is heard/felt- - - -both those statements are made by people who don't understand the operation of Bendix brakes. Since the brake shoes float free at the bottom, there is no way to feel when the shoes are backed off far enough- - - -particularly since one shoe is likely to stay slightly in contact with the drum no matter how far the adjuster is backed off. 10 clicks on a starwheel with coarse teeth is one turn- - - - -20 clicks for a fine-tooth self adjuster wheel gives the same 1-turn adjustment. The shoes self-center in the drum when the pressure of the wheel cylinder pushes them out against the drum.

You'll need to remove those adjusters and free them up with penetrating oil and/or a little heat, then use high temperature grease like disc brake wheel bearing grease (sparingly) to lubricate the threads. There's a very thin spring washer between the adjuster body and one end of the adjuster where it meets the brake shoe.
Jerry

I believe all your brake parts including drums if needed can be had at Rockauto.com.🛠

Glad to hear you got it off!

Chris

Napa very likely will have your parts as well.

Not up by us, Hambone! The Napa here is awful!

Maybe so, but worth a try to save on shipping. The independent Napas (and one we frequent) is a go to source. My 62 and 66 brake parts were on the shelf.

And 64 P10 - you are not venturing out on your own. We all start at the beginning with not much and not enough. We will help you through it.

Well my star nut adjuster hole is in the face of the drum-not the backing plate.
Thinking of drilling a hole in the back of my backing plate so I dont have to take the wheel off just to adjust the brakes? since these are pre-self adjusting style.
Also, any possibility I can just buy the same size self adjusting shoes/hardware/spring kit and install it in place of my existing situation or am I stuck with these non self adjusting brakes?


[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5t8IEcGD...4QHOQCKgBGAs/s1600/20180623_102903-1.jpg[/img]

I have seen a few early brake systems retro-fitted to self adjusters. I'd suggest finding a similar size later model Bendix brake setup in a salvage yard and either scavenging the parts or at least taking a series of detailed photographs to guide you in the conversion. The cable-type self adjuster system would probably be the simplest to transfer. There's a cable attached to the top anchor pin that is routed over a guide on the rear brake shoe that operates the ratchet pawl of the adjuster, along with a different lower spring assembly and a fine-tooth star wheel. It doesn't necessarily need to be for a GM brake- - - -Bendix made similar systems for a bunch of manufacturers. Anytime the shoe assembly rocks back far enough during a stop in reverse to pick up a tooth on the starwheel, the shoes get adjusted out a few thousandths of an inch. That continues as long as there is sufficient brake lining material left to be effective.
Jerry

Update and appreciate everyone's help.
I found parts at the Oreilys in Fredericksburg, Va the same day I hooked up with the Old Dominion Bolters for the first part of the NDkid farewell drive.
Nice to meet some of u in person!
So far, I have been able to get the rears done.
I don't have self adjusters on my brakes so that explains why the backing up method to tighten the shoes didn't work for me. Also, one of the shoe hold down pins was missing so the shoe prolly wasn't in the right place at all. So, the reality was that the rear shoes were not really hooking up with the drums at all. I fixed all the hardware issues and adjusted the star wheel manually from the hole in the face of the drums (since my backing plates don't have holes in them-decided not to drill them out). After adjustment, the rear brakes seemed to hook up nicely while truck was jacked up. Dropped stepvan to the ground and the parking brake now works in both directions!! Making progress.
This weekends project is the front brakes. I have a feeling they are going to be way out of adjustment also.

I don't seem to recall any manual-adjust brakes with the adjusting slot in the drum instead of the backing plate. It's possible someone might have taken a giant leap backwards and retro-fitted your brakes from self-adjusters back to manual. I don't think it's going to be possible to get a good adjustment without the wheel mounted to get a feel for when the shoes are adjusted to that "firm drag" point I mentioned. At some time in the future, think about going to the later system with the self adjusters- - - -it's a lot less work in the long run to let the brakes take up their own slack.
Jerry

My 66 K10 has the adjusting window on the drum. Have to remove wheel to adjust. Not happy with that but it does seem to be a setup that was delivered. I do have the self adjusting.

P10,

Glad to hear you are making progress towards driving your truck down the road.hopefully, your front brakes aren’t as bad. Even if they are decent, might as well make it all new for the piece of mind. Especially since you don’t know what the last guy didn’t know!

Chris

Update. Finished the front brakes and went back to the school parking lot to check it all out. Much better, so I took the first drive on the roads down to the local Starbucks. All good. Was about 95 degrees out, no overheating, brakes ok, ran ok made it there and back without any issues.
Aprreciate everyone's guidance!

Hambone, the only time you should have to use that slot would be after a brake job to get the shoes close to the drums. Adjust the shoes out until you get a noticeable drag, then pull the adjusting pawl away from the star wheel with a hook tool and back it off 15-20 clicks. Once that's done, the self-adjusters will fine tune themselves after a couple of dozen stops in reverse.
Jerry

got it.

Great job P10! I wish I could have been around for the safer maiden voyage.

Chris