The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline Install T5 transmission to 216 in 1952 3100 ??

Question: Can I install a T5 transmission in my !952 3100, using the existing/stock
Bellhousing and clutch arm assembly? If NO, please explain why. Thanks

Note: This question may have been answered previously on The Forum but,
after much searching, I can not find it.

I'm not sure how you couldn't find it,T5 swaps is one of the more common discussions. Yes, it can be done. I've got a T5 behind a '49 216 with stock bellhousing, clutch arm assembly, throw-out bearing, and pressure plate.

Good news. Thank you twotone!

Please share with us how much of a difference this swap has had on the driveability of your truck. What rear end do you have?
Carl

Before the swap I had a set of 31 inch tall tires and with the stock drive train I could maintain 55 mph for short stretches.

I'm now using my stock rear-end housing with a 3.90 geared open center section from a '55 - '62 half ton and a .72 overdrive S10 T5. My current tires are about 28 - 29 inches tall. Shortly after the swap I made a four hour, one way, non-stop drive that was mostly interstate and was able to run about 75 mph the whole trip. The next day I drove the four hours home reaching 80+ at times. First gear is still low enough for towing and hauling.
At this point I'm only limited by horsepower.
And aerodynamics.
And common sense.

Ironically, my stock speedometer is spot on.

Oldtruckz,
It is very important to work out the math for the gearing to make it a good driver.
A 3.73 or 3.90 rear works very well with a 0.72 overdrive gear.

Do you have a T5 already? If yes, what is the tag #?
I'll add more info once you respond.

Jay

Lugnutz,
Yes, I do have the transmission. It is a late '80s Camaro, 2.95 first, 0.72 OD with S10 tail housing.
Do not have tag#.
Also, after reading twotone's reply stating he converted his stock rear-end to an open drive shaft, I hope
he will share some details, i.e.: Spring mounting, Gear ratios available, Donor center section options, etc.

Oldtrukz, Lugnutz is considered our resident T5 guru. He has quite a reputation around these parts and is willing to help you.🛠

Justhorsenround,

Thanks for that. My Lucky Day!

Lugnuts is definitely the T5 guy. I read a lot of his posts before I considered the swap. I can only share the knowledge I gathered from doing this to my truck.

I don't know the difference between the Camero and S10 T5s so I'll let Lugnuts help you with a clutch package.

I used an adapter from Hamilton intakes. You don't need one, but I chose to use one.
Remove your transmission crossmember, you wont need it with the T5.
As far as I know the Chevy 1/2 ton center section from '55 to '62 is the only one that will interchange with the stock torque tube unit.
Most commonly they are 3.90s but you'll find a 4.11 on occasion. 3.90 works well with these engines, especially the 216s that couldn't push a taller gear anyway. It's a pretty simple operation to swap out the centers.The 3.90 ring gear is taller so it won't drop in without a little grinding on the axle housing to provide clearance. Just a little, maybe 1/8th inch. I had an extra rear end to work with, so I did everything on sawhorses out in the yard.
I actually welded up the pivot on the spring perches to make them solid, but most guys like to cut the old perches off and go with new ones. That might be the better way to go because it might make it easier to set your pinion angle.
While I was at it I re drilled the hole for the alignment pin in the perch to move the axle back about 1 3/4". That centered the rear wheels in the fenders better.
I found the drive-shaft from a mid 90s Astro van with the front yoke from an S10 shaft was the perfect length for my truck.

Great info in here. I’m debating going down this route next winter if I don’t go the SM420 route.

Edit: found a guy who can build a T5, need to find a nice center section and I think I’m set

Oldtruckz,
I also have a 1980s Camaro T5 with an S10 tail housing. It runs behind a 1964 230ci in my 1965 C10 with 3.73 rear.
Highway speeds are a breeze. The 2.95 first gear is the same gear my factory 3 speed had for first gear.
My website link is in the signature at the bottom. The steps to install the T5 should be pretty straightforward. My bell sits on a factory cross member. I’m not sure what your setup is.
You will enjoy the T5. I’ll help any way I can.

So, what is the purpose/benefit of using a transmission Adapter Plate on my
original '52 bell housing if an Adapter Plate is not necessary?
Isn't a plate going to change the relationship of the Input Shaft to the
Pilot Bearing, Clutch Disc Splines, etc.?

I don't know how the Camaro T5 compares to the S10 T5 but the S10 T5 input shaft is too long and must be shortened. The input splines then have to be lengthened. Not only does the adapter eliminate the need for modifying your transmission, it also assures the transmission input shaft stays properly aligned with the engine crank shaft. A slight misalignment can lead to transmission failure.
Some people will argue that an adapter is not necessary, but it made the T5 installation much quicker and easier and gives me some peace of mind which is important on a daily driver that takes me long distances from home. It's also nice to know that if I'm on a road trip and the transmission fails I can replace it with a junkyard T5 using the tools under my seat without the need for modifying the input shaft.

Not only is my truck my daily driver it's also the only vehicle I have so it was important to me that the swap went as quickly and smoothly as possible. I was able to swap out the transmission, rear end, and drive shaft in half a Saturday and spent the rest of the weekend road testing it before returning to work on Monday.

twotone,
Based on your reply and Lugnutz very informative Tech Article on his website,
"S10 T5 Transmission Jeep Shaft Swap - DIY and skip the adapter plate" I have
learned that I do Not have to use an Adapter Plate with my V8 Camaro T5.

My next hurdle is the rear-end. Since you informed me that an AD torque tube
rear-end can be converted to an open drive shaft rear end, my preferences at
present are as follows:
1) Begin a search for a 1955 1st series complete rear-end,
2)If no success, a 1955 2nd series thru 1959 and install pumpkin only in my '52 housing,
3) Or install complete 2) above rear-end.
I understand that all of these rear-ends will probably be 3.90s, so I hope to get
Lugnutz input on that ratio since he is running a 3.73.

Keep in mind that if one retains ones torque tube rear end (with torque tube replaced with a later model open-style pinion) one will need to alter the way the axle mounts to the springs. Either weld-on spring perches (my preference), or weld up the rubber impregnated '52 axle-to-spring mounts (not so fun to do correctly).
Carl

I have decided to go with a Mustang II front suspention on my 1953 3100. Please direct me to the best buy. I have heard stories of the cheap Chineese version that are out there.

RB55, way to Hi-Jack a thread buddy.

Post your question in the HiPo forum where it belongs.

Oldtruckz,
My rear axle gear is 3.73 (not 2.73). You will LOVE the V8 Camaro T5 gearing with a 0.72 overdrive combined with a 3.90 rear.
You are correct, the V8 Camaro input shaft is the correct length for a direct bolt-on to a bell housing. My complete driveline installation post should help you with those steps.
I cannot give advice about converting from torque tube to an open drive line. That is unfamiliar territory.

Twotone has explained all the RIGHT REASONS to use an adapter plate for an S10 T5 application. The adapter plate has a place in this world, but as with many things in life, there are ways to get around it.

Lugnutz,
Corrected your rear-axle gear ratio to 3.73 Thankz

52Carl,
Please share your insights regarding an effective method to continue to use the
Rear Spring Seats on a torque tube axle housing converted to an open drive shaft.

The torque tube spring seats have a vulcanized rubber insert to allow motion as the springs compress and rebound.
You will need to eliminate this motion when you go with an open drive shaft. They can be welded to eliminate this movement, but the heat from the welding can cause the rubber to burn and contaminate your weld.

I am also planning on installing an S10 T5 behind a 235 in my 51 pickup, I have a rebuilt T5 with a Jeep input shaft, so I won’t need an adapter. My question is, if I change out the center section with a 55-62 center section on my stock rear end, are there new ring and pion gears available in different ratios for that center section? I think I would like to use something around 3.70

Duane,
Not the answer to your question but, what are the First and Fifth/OD gear ratios of your transmission?

Thanks for responding, first gear is 3.73 and OD is .72 and my rear tires are 28 in. tall on the ground. My concern is that the rear end gears wont be to high for first gear, right now my 2nd gear in my stock 4 speed is 3.58 and rear end gears are 3.55, this combo works perfect

First gear is 3.73 and OD is .72 and tires are 28” tall on the ground

Duane,
28" tire - 3.58 second gear - 3.55 rear end - 10 miles an hour = 1525 rpm
28" tire - 3.73 first gear - 3.90 rear end - 10 miles an hour = 1746 rpm

With my T5 and 3.90 rear end I usually start out in first gear, but can start in second if I choose.

Duane, twotone,
My goal is to have a more highway/cruising friendly transmission and rear end gear ratio combination.
So I am giving more consideration to the engine RPM in 5th gear at 70 MPH max.
From my research, it appears that for a 1955-1962 Chevy truck rear end, there are only two(2) ratios to choose from:
1) The stock 3.90 or
2) A 3.38 after market ring and pinion set.
I am leaning toward the 3.90, Lugnutz 2nd choice recommendation if a 3.73 is not available.

3.90 rear end - .72 fifth gear - 28" tires - 70 MPH = 2359 RPM
3.73 rear end - .72 fifth gear - 28" tires - 70 MPH = 2256 RPM
3.38 rear end - .72 fifth gear - 28" tires - 70 MPH = 2044 RPM

Guess I need to do a "Stovebolt Search" for the Recommended Maximum/ Optimum Cruising RPM for 216 and 235 Engines.

I can only offer up my own experience. My 3.90 rear end - .72 fifth gear T5 and 28" tires allows me to cruise at 70+mph for 3 to 4 hours without issue. I have to mention that my 216 was rebuilt back in 1974 and may have been machined for insert bearings at the time and that may play into the longevity of the engine.

twotone,
Sounds good to me. Thanks for that. Radial tires? What size and brand?
I hope to keep my truck as original looking as possible. I understand that
Diamond Back Tires has a good selection of 16" tires.

Oldtruckz,
I'm running radials but they're far wider than stock. I'd go out and check the size, but the 80° weather of last week has been replaced with a 24° morning with blowing snow and I choose to stay out of it. I still prefer the original look so I'm running the original hubcaps on steel wheels. I'm going to highly suggest an anti-sway bar, new king pins, and modern tie rods and drag link. There's no way I'd run these speeds without it. The higher your speed the tighter the tolerances need to be. [IMG]http://i891.photobucket.com/al...uck/20161029154701_zpslqwhki4z.jpg[/IMG]

This is the part I am hung up on. So basically, struggling for better words here, your transmission is the tail on the dog?
Please explain.

sstock,

In its original application the T5 was used with a side mount engine. In that three point mounting configuration the frame could flex without putting tension on the aluminum transmission case. Using a T5 behind a 216, 235, etc without a transmission cross-member allows the transmission to move free of the frame. Adding a transmission cross-member creates a rigid four point mounting configuration that transfers frame flex to the weakest point - the aluminum trans case. These old frames flex a lot.

I don't mean to argue against the use of a cross-member, but this makes the most sense to me and I test this theory on a daily basis.

Thank you for your explanation twotone. I respect your opinion. I cant wrap my head around the trans only mounted to the bellhousing and the rest just cantilevered out from there. T5 does have aluminum ears mounting correct? With a load in the back and if you side step the clutch does the pinion angle go to the moon and you rip the ujoints out of the truck? Help me understand here? Do you have any pictures of this install to help me understand?

Thanks,
Steve

The 216 has a front mount and 2 rear mounts at the bell housing. That is all you need. I have this arrangement with a '50 and a 235/T-5 and I drive it like I stole it from time to time and it is solid.
I shared your concerns before I did the swap, but the extra mount at the tail of the T-5 for this application would potentially break something from frame flex when you mash the gas.
I have a very pristine frame, and when you bounce on the rear bumper on the outside end of it, you can see the cab and bed move independent from each other like there was a pivot in the frame where they meet. These frames FLEX man.
The best analogy I can think of is if you hold a tree limb at the ends by your hands, you can't break it. Put your knee in the center of the limb, and it will snap.

Sorry Steve, I don't have any photos. Maybe here in a couple weeks when I climb under to do my six month re-grease I'll take some. I hate to say it but I've abused this truck. I towed a double axle car trailer twenty miles at 55 mph with a "54 1/2 ton Chevy on it. I've hauled 800 - 1000 pounds of Art show stuff over 4 hours at 60 - 75 mph. and two loads of rock through town so heavy I had the air shocks maxed out just to keep the fenders off the tires. I seriously think a transmission cross-member in any of these cases would have turned the bell-housing cross-member into Carl's "knee".

I'll provide the other side of the conversation with the disclaimer that I may just be lucky and that may change tomorrow. When I installed a T5 in my near stock 1951, 3600 I fabed up a rear cross member and used a new S10 (rubber) trans mount.

So far, no problems in about 5,000 miles of driving and working the truck. That includes hauling 40 bales of square hay on the flatbed from the field to the barn (2,000 lbs. and 15 miles of rough country road). Hauling fire wood from the woods to the house. The truck has been on one longish trip of about 1,300 miles last year and will do that again in the next couple weeks.

Now, all the above said if I were doing the conversion now, I would not use a transmission crossmember for all the reasons mentioned above.

This has been a really good thread. I enjoy getting your explanations. Thanks for the pic Moparguy. Seems both of you men have put your individual combos through the test.

That S10 rubber mount pad looks to be very thick, and if allows a lot of axial movement, then I'd say that it should not be an issue for your T-5 in your particular truck. I wouldn't bother doing it, but I don't see your particular setup as being detrimental.
Carl