This commentary is not about any painters or advisors on Stovebolt. It's about my experience with auto painters. I suspect others may have had similar. Not commenting about good auto body repair shops or custom painter. I'm talking about trying to find a guy who can paint, needs a fair amount of money and is a go getter. A guy or gal who is still humble and does not make it sound like they are creating a masterpiece. A person who knows it's not as much work for them as it would be for me. Just someone who can sand it and paint it fairly smooth. Not Maaco and not Show quality.
What I've run into: In general, they are independent folks. They work from their home or some are "mobile". Most are very flakey, never finish and they loose interest. Can't say that I blame them because I don't like sanding either. I would never use a mobile guy, which craigslist is full of. I have a hunch that they can remain anonymous that way and you can't find them if something goes wrong. Anyway, after you make initial contact with them, they never call back, they never email back. I guess they just wait til you show up. I guess they see a lot of flakes also. Get a lot of inquiries that never follow up. BUT, they need to realize that is part of ANY business and is no excuse to treat the next guy like a flake. Once they get the job, you can't get it back from them. They push Peter back to finish Paul. I had to badger a guy and his wife for months to get my truck back. He finally delivered it one night, after dark, and it was not really finished as day broke the next morning. I lived with it. It should be easier to find a painter for $4000 than it is. $6000-$10,000 and up is the going price. That's too much money for manual/electrical sanding and spraying some paint they get at a discount. I always strip down my trucks so there is really NO masking to do. They don't care. If they do a truck a month, that's $72K per year gross on the side/cash. Give me a break! really that's what I want, a break for bringing them the work. I'll eventually find the right guy who looks and acts right and is reasonable to a poor man on social security.
The reason my father and his business partner got out of the body shop business was that it was virtually impossible to find a reliable painter. That was back in the early 1950's and the situation hadn't improved much if at all when I co-owned a body shop in the mid-1970's. They said it was commonplace to have to bail their painter out of jail almost every Monday morning with a "drunk and disorderly" charge pending. The guys inhaled lacquer fumes all week and apparently they had to keep the buzz going on the weekends with booze. By the 70's, the drunks were usually potheads also, so I had to deal with both kinds of self-destructive behavior. Nowadays, the cyano-acrilate hardeners used in a lot of clearcoat jobs makes painters crazier than a mad hatter! It doesn't even have to be inhaled- - - -it's absorbed through any bit of uncovered skin it can find! There's just no way to win! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
It is hard today to find anyone to do any thing right including painting and mechanical work. That is why I do all my own stuff now. If I dont know how, I study up on it and give it a try. If I dont have the tools I buy them.
The issue seems to be similar to many independent contractor guilds. Reading your text reminded me of years of dealing with various painters, plumbers, drywall finishers, carpenters, block layers, etc. Often the contractor seems to show relative proficiency in using the phone, email, or text forms of communication media when he is in the need of a new job or needs money. All too often they lose the communication skills after they have committed to do the job or worse off, already began the job. Contractor amnesia? The traits are more common in some fields than others. I suspect it boils down to a few common variables, namely: relative demand, inability to say no, and ineptitude in business management. Poor business planning, scheduling and money management skills seem to be way too common. My litmus test is made during the face-to-face interview. If there is even the slightest indicator of inconsistent, flaky, erratic behavior; they are out of the running. Finding a guy who huffs fumes for a living that doesn't show any of those traits is a challenge...but isn't part of the challenge to locate rare items part of this hobby? Pink unicorn hunting anyone?
Oh, if you do find that good/reasonable/reliable painter; keep it a tightly held secret.
I’ve had similar experience trying to find an electrician. I’ll eventually have my shop wired but the process has been very frustrating.
On a good note, I follow a paint and body man on Facebook who I admire a lot. He takes dozens and dozens of photos of his work in progress and you can see he does superb work. Metal Art Customs is the business name on Facebook. A one man operation in Ohio. Darrell Nichols. Look him up on Facebook and you will be impressed. I have seen several 1960-66 trucks that he’s done start to finish and WOW!
Cheap painters are flaky...yes BUT real good professional painters won't touch your work because when asked "who painted that?" you are gonna tell them and all the mistakes in body work are going to be blamed on the guy who painted it. They'll ask how much you paid and then the tisk tisk tisk comments follow... This is why real talent costs real money. NOBODY ever asks "who did the body work?".
Nobody has ever taken their truck to a shop and said "I don't need show quality" and then been happy with anything less than show quality! Reputable shops are not stupid or cheap for this reason.
You'd be better off to learn to paint it yourself, so when asked "who painted that?" you can tell them you did it in your own backyard and they'll be impressed (despite any blemishes).
Firstly: I can't do what those painters did..................... Learn on someone else's truck.
Secondly: If I paid $3000-$4000, I don't believe I would expect not to have some orange peel and some anomalies.. I don't think I would expect to read the date on a penny in the reflection. I would see a few of the persons paint jobs.
Thirdly: If they say "Who painted that?", they could be impressed with price vs looks. I have never seen bad work and asked who did it.
Fourthly (if that's a word): I can't convince myself to try it because I can't paint an old chair.
BTW: what about a Wagner Power Painter?
I have a gun, an 80 gal compressor and some epoxy primer. I just can't "pull the trigger" if you know what I mean. I always read on anything I'm getting ready do and it really helps. In the case of painting..................doesn't help.
Like sooooo many things in life, you get what you pay for. Quality body work takes more skill/knowledge than slapping on body filler and shooting paint. References, References,References!!! Who would want the brain surgeon who graduated at the bottom of his class to operate on them? That’s why II do all my body work and painting. I know that I’ve personally done it to the very best of my abilities and any “warts” in the work are due to me plus I didn’t pay a huge amount for someone else to mess up. It’s far easier to forgive myself than someone else! ðŸ˜
"And this is exactly why I taught myself bodywork and paint, bought a massive compressor and quality spray gun. Made many mistakes, but figured it out."
Dave,
Thanks for posting that. I did the same thing when I restored my '36 Chevy pickup in the early 1970s. I was very reluctant to try doing my own body work (no bondo) and painting because it seemed way beyond what I could learn. The dad of one of my buddies was a very experienced body man and painter and I'll remember his words as long as I live: "You won't learn any younger".
I contacted the manufacturers of air spray equipment and paint products for information and they very generously sent me lots of literature on how to use their products effectively. Starting the priming and painting process on small stuff like taillight buckets, headlight buckets and wheels I worked my way up to big body panels.
The restoration was complete in time for the 1976 VCCA National Meet in Colorado Springs. My wife and I drove to Colorado Springs from Southern California camping along the way in a tent, 1400 miles each way, and competed against the trailer queens delivered to the meet in enclosed trailers and won Class T-2 (1929-36 commercial vehicles). So the take-away from this is that a motivated amateur can do at least as well, and often better than the "professionals".
The old saying "If you want something done right, do it yourself" probably still applies and probably always will. In the 40+ years since the job was completed I've found FootStomper's statement to be true: "You'd be better off to learn to paint it yourself, so when asked "who painted that?" you can tell them you did it in your own backyard and they'll be impressed (despite any blemishes)." Even after owning my '36 since 1965 it's still nice to look at what was accomplished in a residential home garage with simple, inexpensive tools.
My suggestion to bartamos is "Go for it". If you get stuck on something people will gladly step up to help you.
Here's the stuff that scares me. Stuff that painting how-to's don't tell you.
1. What do you do if you have left over paint in the cup? 2. How long do you have to mix some more before the gun/cup clogs? 3. Where do you clean the gun? 4. How much of a pain is cleaning the gun? 5. How do you touch up paint after a week or month? 6. How smooth is smooth? 7. Sand with machines or blocks? 8. Can you paint over older paint if it's tight. 9. How do you know if it's tight?
Here's the stuff that scares me. Stuff that painting how-to's don't tell you.
1. What do you do if you have left over paint in the cup? - discard it 2. How long do you have to mix some more before the gun/cup clogs? read TDS for "pot life" 3. Where do you clean the gun? "in your garage with some lacquer thinner or gun wash" 4. How much of a pain is cleaning the gun? - not really a pain at all 5. How do you touch up paint after a week or month? - that depends on the type of paint you buy 6. How smooth is smooth? 7. Sand with machines or blocks? - both..just depends on what stage you are at 8. Can you paint over older paint if it's tight. - absolutely! 9. How do you know if it's tight?
- if it's not peeling or flaking or otherwise falling off, it is deemed "tightly adhered" which is a perfect substrate to apply more paint.
Yes, there is lots to learn but it is possible if you set your mind to it. Merry Christmas!
I used disposable paint cups too. I used DeVilbiss DeKups. Got those from Eastwood and from Auto Body Toolmart. Also used the tear-off sheets for mixing the filler by Clean Sheets.
The nice thing about the cups is that for epoxy, if I mix too much I can cap it in the disposable cup afterwards and shoot it the next day. The cups are pricey, but I think that they saved me money in paint and primer in the long run.
Last edited by Norcal Dave; 12/26/20174:38 AM.
~ Dave 1950 Chevrolet 3600 3/4-ton with 261 engine & T5 Transmission
Recent conversation with a co-worker of mine that came to mind when I read this thread:
He has a '83 Chevy truck that was this daily driver back in high school....that has lived at the farm since....and he wants to restore now that he's in his mid-30s. He's a handy sort of person, with some bodywork experience. He's gonna do the filler/prime/sand thing himself....and hire out the painting.
This friend has a friend with some sort of 70s Mopar (can't remember details). Really sharp-looking car, He asked who painted it....and it was ______ out by _______ (spot in the road way out in the country). My friend had heard of this painter, but never knew his name or where he was located. "______ out by ______" is an eccentric old British fellow....sort of a hermit. But apparently he can paint the heck out of a car on his dirt floor barn. There are certain rules of engagement with this hermit painter. He doesn't advertise, and doesn't take on just any work....you have to have some sort of connection to even get him to speak with you. When listening to the story it kind of reminded me of the "Soup Nazi" episode of Seinfeld. My friend is hopeful that he can use his friend connection to get in good with _________.
Anyway...I see this as sort of a "best case scenario" for those of us who can't/won't paint ourselves.....and can't hire the big dollar restoration-shop. You have to find your _____________ out by _________.
From my limited experience I would say that if you can manage to get the truck primed and sanded properly, and you presently have moderate ambient temperatures, there is no reason that you couldn't shoot the final paint and wet sand/cut/buff it yourself. I realize that people fear orange peel, but if you follow the directions with the paint, I think that it is fairly rare to have a case of it that is so bad that you can't wet sand smooth. I would love to hear of others' experience with this in their own garage... I have never gotten orange peel so bad that it was a serious problem.
~ Dave 1950 Chevrolet 3600 3/4-ton with 261 engine & T5 Transmission
It probably boils down to the body work. I can't and don't want to do it. Maybe there is someone somewhere that would do it and then I paint. But it does not seem like anyone does it that way. The painter, or their employees, do it as part of the "job". Maybe that's a business opportunity....PaintPrep, Inc. That's what I need. So we are round and round again. That's why Maaco is in business so long.
The money is in the body work. 50 hrs of body work and 2 hrs to paint....+ paint and supplies. (estimate hrs just to make a point, ratio may be off) So you have a painter who adds that all up and charges you per hr. Spells it out. That's fair. Then there is the guy who adds it all up and adds a profit on top. All figured in his head, after looking you over. That's fare.
I had to do the body work myself because I couldn't afford to have someone else do it. Bartamos, you are right- 95% of the work is everything you do before the paint goes on. Materials alone for a single stage paint job cost me more than $1600.
2 gallons of quality paint (with all mixers) was about $600. Epoxy primer is also expensive. Hi-build primer, fillers (that you load up and sand off that end up on as a pile of dust on the floor and you apply it all over again, over and over), rolls of quality sand paper and flexible hand sanders, special foam discs & compounds to cut & buff, chemicals to clean & prep the metal and cleaners to prep in between primer layers- it all adds up fast. And that doesn't include the paint guns, the compressor, and the filtering system you need to get really clean air.
I will say that I could never have imagined how many hours of sanding and re-priming and refilling and sanding that I was in for- it was a downright painful process, and mostly because of how many times I sanded too deep (hitting metal) and having to re-epoxy to seal yet again. There is no way to learn it without getting a feel for it, and getting a feel for it has taken a LOT of time (and money). And I still don't know even a 1/3 of what I want to know about body working and painting. I would guess that a talented & experienced body guy could have spent 25% of the time that I spent, and had better results than me.
Maybe my next project will go quicker.
~ Dave 1950 Chevrolet 3600 3/4-ton with 261 engine & T5 Transmission
I don't want to be a painter. I don't want to build the painter a new house either. You can't get your money back on an expensive paint job when you sell. I am shopping around with the knowledge I've received from you all. I feel like I will find the right person. I probably will give up on doing it myself. I am sure it WILL NOT be a shop. It will be an experienced guy on the side or retired. Not a Primadonna. I will post what I do and how I ended up....and pics.
Unfortunately, I have a really rough '68 Nova sitting in my yard waiting for some lovin.....it's going to need a new lower firewall and full floor replacement from front to rear. I"m sure I'm looking at 2 yrs minimum!
~ Dave 1950 Chevrolet 3600 3/4-ton with 261 engine & T5 Transmission
I had to do the body work myself because I couldn't afford to have someone else do it. Bartamos, you are right- 95% of the work is everything you do before the paint goes on. Materials alone for a single stage paint job cost me more than $1600.
2 gallons of quality paint (with all mixers) was about $600. Epoxy primer is also expensive. Hi-build primer, fillers (that you load up and sand off that end up on as a pile of dust on the floor and you apply it all over again, over and over), rolls of quality sand paper and flexible hand sanders, special foam discs & compounds to cut & buff, chemicals to clean & prep the metal and cleaners to prep in between primer layers- it all adds up fast. And that doesn't include the paint guns, the compressor, and the filtering system you need to get really clean air.
I will say that I could never have imagined how many hours of sanding and re-priming and refilling and sanding that I was in for- it was a downright painful process, and mostly because of how many times I sanded too deep (hitting metal) and having to re-epoxy to seal yet again. There is no way to learn it without getting a feel for it, and getting a feel for it has taken a LOT of time (and money). And I still don't know even a 1/3 of what I want to know about body working and painting. I would guess that a talented & experienced body guy could have spent 25% of the time that I spent, and had better results than me.
Maybe my next project will go quicker.
Great write up! Every word true without exaggeration!
My 59 has gobbled up over 2000$ in single stage urethane, urethane clear coat, (yes, I'm putting clear over single stage for an even deeper depth of image "DOI"), epoxy primer and high build primer...not to mention filler or other supplies like sand paper etc.
Back when I was a co-owner of a body shop, neither my partner nor I wanted anything to do with a car owner who said "I did my own prep work- - - -all I want you to do is paint it!" We had absolutely NO idea how experienced he was, what sort of mistakes he had covered up with that rattle can primer, or how many times that porous primer had been rained on, touched with greasy hands, or had been subjected to any of at least a dozen potentially disastrous situations before he showed up at our door looking for a cheap paint job. Of course, if the job went sour, that type of customer was more than willing to badmouth our shop to everyone he met! If you find a painter willing to accept your word about how wonderful your prep work has been, you probably deserve the quality of the job you're about to get! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
