The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop New to the forum- engine advice needed

Thanks HRL. I made sure to polish all the journals and thoroughly clean them all up before re-assembly.
Now my next question...I put a new rope seal in the rear main bearing cap (Yeah, I know you're supposed to do both, but since the engine is in the truck, I figured I'd just do what I could. Shouldn't hurt, right? Maybe not completely solve the problem, but hopefully it helps at least a little bit. Anything is better than nothing.)
Anyways, I cleaned out the old seal groove very well, and rolled in the new seal. It's from Fel-Pro, and is the rope seal embedded with graphite. I got it down in the seal groove as best I could (after much work pinching, pushing, and working my way back and forth getting it pushed in a little further every time. Then when it was in, I used a razor blade and sliced the seal off even with the bearing cap. I have done rope seals once before on a tractor, and they are still holding well 3 years later. (I'd say the tractor is still leak-free, but about once a month it drips 1 drop from the rear main seal, but I'd call that a success) When I did the tractor, after putting the seals in and re-tourquing the main cap, I couldn't turn the engine, even using a long pry bar. Surprisingly the 6V starter turned it over, and after a couple days the engine began to free up a bit.
Now, on this truck...I haven't even got the main bearing cap torqued down all the way (I'm at about 80 lbs) and I can't even turn the engine with the same long pry bar, prying from the flywheel. (It's about 2' long). Should I be worried? Before I put the rope seal in, even with the rear bearing cap snugged down I could turn the engine over with the long 24" pry bar; the engine having a light drag. Now with the seal in, it's locked down tight, even with only 80 pounds of torque on the cap. The pry bar starts flexing, but nothing moves. I knew this might happen, so that's why I tried for quite a while to work that seal down into the groove as best I could. I worked it in, then used a round dowel to further help roll it in, starting in the middle then going up one side, returning to the middle, then rolling up the other side.
Any advice?
Thanks

Well I may have answered my own question...I pulled the rear main cap and took a look. Apparently even though I thought I had the seal pushed in far enough, it must not have been, because it was pushed in further and the seal ends were about 1/16 of an inch below the cap surface. I pulled that seal out and got the other one out of the package. I got a bigger diameter dowel and really focused on getting this one in, pinching and pushing, then rolling the thing pretty hard once I got it in by hand. I was able to get it further in that time than I could with the first seal. I took a photo of the first seal when I installed it, and compared that photo with the 2nd seal, and I'm able to see I do indeed have it pressed in further now than I did the first time. I trimmed the ends and got it ready to go. I will work on getting it installed tomorrow, and hopefully everything works out!

Have fun- - - - - -those seals can be a real pain to deal with!
Jerry

That's what I've heard. I've heard it's not the worst job, once you get the hang of the "lost art".
Anyway...here's another question....I've read in many places that say to use sealant on
1, The bearing cap, but not the seal ends.
2. The seal ends but not the bearing cap.
3. Both the seal ends and the bearing cap.

One source said not to use any sealant at all, because it increases the bearing clearance. However, the instructions that came with the rope seals correspond with #1 above, saying to use an anaerobic sealant. What do you guys do?

And here's something else...some sources say trim the seal flush with the cap, and others say to leave it a bit proud on top, stating that it will get pushed down when you torque the cap down and help seal better. I really don't know which is right, so what so you guys recommend? What are "tried and true" methods?

Also...this may sink the ship, but when I pulled the cap for the first time, I noticed the right end of the original (I'm guessing it's original) seal was sticking up past the bearing cap surface about 1/8", and the left side was flush with the top of the cap. I thought that was strange, until I noticed the right side of the seal in the block was recessed about 1/8". In theory I guess the seal in the cap should stick up enough that it fills in the slight void in the seal groove in the block, but I'm not sure how that would've worked, getting it fitted in there perfectly. This does concern me, and I have a small voice lingering in the back of my mind telling me that may cause trouble. Maybe since I've got the timing cover off, I just need to get a "Sneaky Pete" and a rope seal kit from Best Gasket (The Graphtite seals) and replace both top and bottom? I hate taking more time since I'm on a deadline, but in the long run, I'd rather have a leak-free engine than an engine that I will just have to come back to and fix again later.

Edit: If getting the seal rolled in and firmly pressed into the bearing cap takes as much work as it does, how do you get the top seal pressed in at all using the "Sneaky Pete" tool? I'm fearful if I try this, I won't be able to get it pressed in the groove very well, and it will either bind or leak. Yes, I know the right thing is to have the crank out to do this, but that's not an option right now. I really need to get this truck running. There is a tech tip on this website that doesn't explain anything special...it just says pull the new one into place and cut the ends off. Is it really just that simple? No rolling, pinching, and pressing like with the bottom seal?
Thanks!

Hi again guys. I got the new rope seal all in place and the oil pan put back on. Man, that "Sneaky Pete" worked wonders! It was a super easy process, too! Didn't even have to drop the crank! Also, the Graph-tite seal by Best Gaskets seems to be great. It cuts easily with no frays, isn't as big and bulky as traditional rope seals, and looks like it will seal good.

I've moved onto the head now. I got a new head from Old Car Parts in Oregon, and it came with hardened seats that he said were already cut. I had my old valves ground, and lapped them in. However, I am having trouble with a couple of the intake valves. One of the valves I have lapped 3 times and have gotten no seating area formed on the valve. I'm thinking the machinist must have ground it wrong.
On 3 of the intakes, the seating area seems like the proper width to me, but on 2 of the valves they seem kinda narrow. I will try to post pics so you guys can see and tell me for sure.
Then on the exhaust valves...when he ground them, the entire face of the valve is shiny, so when I lap them, I can't tell if they have a sealing surface or not. Again, I will post pics of those as well.

Attached first is an intake seat, after lapping.
Second is an exhaust seat after lapping.
3 and 4 are an intake with what I think is a good seal. Not too much, not too little.
5 is the one with no sealing surface, even after lapping 3 times.
I will post the rest in another post.

Here are the rest of the photos...
this will be a continuation of the last post, so I will start with 6.
6 is another view of the intake valve with no sealing surface.
7 is one of 2 valves with what seems to me to be a questionable sealing surface. It seems a bit narrow to me.
8 is an exhaust valve before lapping.
9 is an exhaust after lapping. Didn't change much, other than that ring, which is more like a scratch.
10 is just another photo of the exhaust valve to show the angle at which it was ground better.

One last thing...this is the compound I have been using. I told the guys at Napa I needed some compound for lapping valves, and this is what they gave me. It says grinding compound, but I guess it works for lapping as well, because I re-did a head on a tractor a year ago using that to lap the valves and it has great compression.

So guys...now that you get a glimpse of what I see, what do you think? Are the "good" sealing surfaces really good? Is the valve with the "seemingly narrow" surface really too narrow, or does it look okay? What about the exhaust valve? I was hoping the before and after photo of that would help you guys out. Then lastly is the issue of the valve with no sealing surface, even after lapping 3 times. I'm thinking it's ground wrong...what do y'all think?
Thanks for any help guys...you don't know how much I appreciate it! Sorry if this all seems a bit long, but I want to try to make you guys see what I see as best I can.

Nobody?

IMHO the valve in pic "7" looks like it has a good sealing surface. The other pics don't look quite right, it almost looks like the valve vs seat angle is off or the compound is not "cutting". Of all the valves that I have lapped, I always used grinding compounds that came in two grits. Coarse and Fine. Start off with coarse and finish off with the fine. My lapping compounds are oil based, I have no experience with water based compounds. I use a Zim egg beater valve lapping tool and it beats the heck out of the old stick and rubber cup. I test for sealing by filling the combustion chamber with a little bit of mineral spirits/solvent. All in all I agree with you, some thing is definitely off.

SimS

Well I really have no idea. I thought 3 & 4 were good for sure, and maybe 7. I wasn't sure about the exhaust, and I know # 5/6 are not right.
Somebody even told me once not to lap valves, but I've always done it.
I'm going to get the #5/6 valve re-ground, and hopefully get the head put back together tomorrow or the next day. (Unless someone points out something is definitely wrong with the others (not 5/6...I'm getting that one fixed) Then I will fill the chambers and see if anything leaks out.
If anyone else has an opinion, I'd like to hear it.
Thanks!

I used to do small engine valves on a daily basis. I've never seen the type of compound your using. That doesn't mean it's not any good, just that I have never used it. What I used came in a small round (like a snuff can) with two sides. One for grinding and one for polishing. The can was green, can't remember the brand. As SimS stated above it was oil based. Your getting there, just slow and steady progress.

Thanks, Martin. What's your take on the valve sealing surfaces? Do they look good, or is something wrong? Like I said, ignore the valve in the 5th and 6th photo, as that one is definitely getting reground.

Hard to tell but could be the seats were ground at a different angle than the valves. Let your machine shop look at all of them.🛠

Martin,
The cool little two sided green cans were the Clover brand. That little can could do a bunch of valves. I had mine for many years. The last stuff I used came in two tubes. I never thought to look up good old Clover.
SimS

Clover (brand) Valve Grinding & Lapping Compounds.

Nice info - thanks.

You have spent a lot of time and money on this engine already. Spend a little bit more money. Take your valves and the head to a reputable machine shop and let them set everything up for you.
In my opinion, lapping valves should be relegated for $100 engines so that starving farmers can get the last bit of hay in the barn, not for a new engine build.
Piece of mind is priceless.
Carl

Nice, Carl

I wonder how many of us were not willing to post your excellent suggestion?

I'll do that, but really that's all this engine is. Lol
Just valves, rings, and a couple seals.

Carl's advice is probably sound from a practical standpoint.

On the other hand, lapping the valves does kind of keep with the "spirit" of this rebuild. Farm truck....getting an old school, farm-style rebuild.

I've really enjoyed following this thread.

Yep..."farm-style rebuild" is probably the most generous way to put it. Lol
Glad you've enjoyed it! It's been fun for me too, even if it is just a band-aid until later on.

Don't take my comments as criticism. I genuinely this has been a cool process to follow and looking forward to seeing your results.

Especially given the fact that you're 19 years old.

The Chevrolet shop manual states that, "the valve seats should be narrowed down to the proper width of 3/64" to 1/16" for the intake and 1/16" to 3/32" for exhaust".

When testing with bluing dye or by lapping, the contact area on the valve should be somewhat centered in the machined surface.

This is very important on the exhaust valves as they are exposed to high temps.
A seat that is too wide can also catch carbon pieces preventing the valve from closing completely, this can lead to a burned exhaust valve.

The intakes are more tolerant except in high performance engines.

I too, have enjoyed following this old school, on the farm build. But sometimes even the poor farmer needed to go in to town to have something done by Wally at the fillin' station.
My biggest regret during all of the years I have been working on these old trucks was scrapping a strong running 216 just because in had a crack in the water jacket and was somewhat in need of a ring job.
I got all uppity for some reason, or suffered a temporary case of mental clarity, logic and practicality. No worries. I have recovered fully and am right back at working on total trash which has no intrinsic value, nor practical use by any description.
Carl

I think HRL and I went to different schools together.
However, I did not move on to receive a Masters degree in Inflammatory Discourse.
(Although I must admit that my patience has been worn thin a time or two.)
Carl

Well guys, I'm going to say some things that are going to make me sound even greener than you already probably think I am...I took the head to a shop that specializes in cylinder heads, and the guy told me right away the seats hadn't been ground. Which makes sense, because I thought the sealing area on them looked a little thin on the exhaust and a little wide on the intake.
I asked the guy at Old Car Parts in Portland, OR (where I bought the head) 4 times if he was sure they had been ground, and he said yes all 4 times. He said all I needed to do was lap the valves in and assemble it. Now I'm feeling a little hacked off because I paid him for that "machining" that apparently never happened.

Also, the cylinder head guy I just took the head to said there is some pitting in the head surface (which I noticed), and he said the gasket should take that up (as these wonderful old engines are pretty forgiving), but he said if it's level it shouldn't be a problem.
So, hopefully they didn't sell me a junk head at Old Car Parts. I'm going to call them sometime in the coming week. I feel I should be reimbursed at least part of the extra money I paid for installing and grinding new seats.

This new machinist seems legit. All he works on is cylinder heads, and seems to stay pretty busy. He seems quite knowledgeable, and I learned a lot just walking around his shop as he explained what all the machines did, how valves and seats were ground, how heads are milled, etc. He showed me a couple heads he just milled with his new machine, and those things were smooth as glass and as shiny as a mirror almost. I was impressed with this place, needless to say.

Old Car Parts in Portland, OR

Seems like they should be added to the Stovebolt Hall of Shame?

Impressive website, too.

Yep. Wally fixes em, and Gomer just fills em up with gas. Sounds like Gomer works for Old Car Parts. Your head guy seems like a good man. Is his name Wally?
(I sure hope I'm not the only one who watches reruns of the Andy Griffith Show, so that this makes any sense to someone.)
Carl

Makes good sense to me; however, a good Gomer would say "but, gallee, I don't do heads".
Or, maybe, "Gallee, I don't remember doing that head."

Or, gaaal-lee, was I supposed to do that purty head?

I wonder if they are the same people on Ebay who have a 92% rating? I was looking at a 270 engine they have listed.

Yep Carl, I've seen many of the old Andy Griffith shows, even with me being so young. Those are fantastic shows!
As far as eBay... I wouldn't have a clue.

Good to know! There is still hope for your generation.

Hey guys...I'm making progress on the engine. It's just that school severely limits my available time to work on it. I plan on getting the head on this weekend, as well as the manifold, carb, etc. Hopefully I'll be able to fire her up this weekend or the next.
My question now is do I need to pressure up the oil galleys before I start it? I smeared assembly lube on all the rod bearings (splash lubed), and on the rear main bearing, as it was the only main I took off. The others are just as they were, and have no assembly lube on them.
I'm not sure if pressurizing the system is necessary or not, so what do y'all think? I would think there would still be oil on the bearing surfaces from when I ran the engine last, but that was in July. (After all, engines sometimes sit longer than that when not in use, right?)
If I do need to go the pressurizing route, could someone walk me through it? I've heard to pull the distributor and attach a drill to the shaft and spin it until significant resistance builds up and oil comes out the rocker shaft, but I have no idea on how to do this. I've never even pulled the distributor before, so a "how to" on that would be a good starting point.
Thanks!

Others will disagree, but I would pull the coil wire and crank the engine several times for about 6-8 seconds each. Check for oil to the rockers then put the coil wire back on and start it up. If you are comfortable pulling and re-stabbing the distributor then by all means do it that way. Take the distributor out and insert a flat blade screwdriver with the handle removed into the hole engaging the oil pump drive. Chuck it up in your 1/2 inch drill and spin away. You will feel resistance when the pressure builds. You will need to turn the pump to the proper position for the distributor to line up with #1 when you put it back in. Your getting there.🛠

CAVEAT to Kidd: I've never done what I'm about to describe, but you asked specifically how to remove the distributor. I'm going to tell you what I've read, but please wait for someone more knowledgeable to confirm. In the meantime, after reading this, you could go look at yours to get a feel for it, in case you do end up doing it. If nothing else, you'll be better informed for when you set your ignition timing.

Underneath the distributor, on the engine block, is a collar clamp around the base of the distributor held in place by a bolt and nut. This clamp is what you'd loosen to rotate your distributor to adjust your ignition timing (I have done that part; getting at the nut and bolt is one of the most challenging things I've done). If you loosen that collar clamp, you should be able to then carefully pull the entire distributor assembly (shaft and all) straight out of the hole it sits in. (Of course, you'd need to disconnect the spark plug wires and coil wire before dong this). This hole is where you'd insert a screwdriver on a drill to spin the oil pump. Good luck. Hope I'm right. I'm usually seeking advice, not giving it. You've been warned.

Nice procedure from Deve’s site:

Http://devestechnet.com/Home/EngineTiming

Thanks guys!
I'll probably just go with Martin's advice and crank it with the fuel line and coil disconnected. I'll be sure to run the gas from the fuel line into a catch pan, as I learned that the hard way a while back. (I was installing a new Graph-tite rear main seal under the truck, and had a helper sit in the cab and crank the engine while I pulled the seal around the crank with a "Sneaky Pete". I totally forgot about the fuel line, and got showered with gasoline. A bit comical, but lesson learned, nevertheless.)

Just clamp off the fuel line with visegrips unless you don’t have any rubber lines. If you have to do the catch can way put some electrical tape around the loose coil wire or remove it entirely. Loose sparks and raw gasoline make for a nasty fire.🛠

Hey guys...So today I got the head put on, and the valve train. I cranked on the engine several times for about 15 seconds each time, and never got any oil coming out from around the valve rockers. I was a little worried, so I pulled them off and cranked again to see if any oil would come out of that little line that sticks up through the head. Nothing did. There are 4 quarts of oil in the engine, so I've got oil. I'm wondering if my 6V battery just isn't turning the engine over fast enough? It seems like it would take quite a bit of pressure from the pump to pump oil that high up in the engine, with the oil dipping rods and all. What do you guys think?

Second, that little oil line comes from the rear camshaft bearing, right? It runs in the block on the right side of the push rods it seems, then turns up to go to the valves. This line is rubbing against 1 of the push rods, but only one. Is this something to worry about? Will the push rod wear a hole in the line and cause loss of top end lubrication? I've tried moving the push rod around in case it wasn't seated right, but that isn't the case.
Thanks!

Third...where that oil line connects to the rocker shaft...there is a fitting screwed into a casting on the shaft, but the fitting is smooth bore inside, and the oil line has no flange or anything to seal it so oil doesn't leak out. I'll try to get pics, but I'm a little confused as to how this seems to go together.
Thanks!

4 qts of oil?

Most truck 235s call for 5 qts oil, unless it is a rebuild (dry), then 5.5 qts.

On a splash-oiler engine, you won't get any oil to the rocker shaft until there's at least 15 PSI at the lower end. The spring in the oil distributor on the driver's side of the engine chokes off the oil supply to the head until the bottom end is lubed well. That's a safety factor to assure the rod and main bearings get enough oil. If you want to be sure oil is being pumped, temporarily disconnect the oil pressure gauge line while you crank the engine. If you remove the distributor and spin the oil pump with a drill motor, you can probably develop enough pressure and volume to get some oil past the control spring and see oil flow at the rockers. Cranking- - - - -probably not!
Jerry