The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop How to clean up a starter?

So I spent a few hours pulling a significant mouse nest out of my bell housing. I had to get one of those 'grabbers' to feed up into the clutch and pull it all out of there. I only discovered the nest when I was replacing my oil pan gasket. Just before I garage it, I was having trouble starting. It ground slowly and I needed a 12v jump to get it going (still a 6v system). I thought it was the battery, so I replaced it, but it's still turning over slowly and stopping. Now I'm wondering if some of the nest got into the starter gear and is causing it. Before I pull the starter and take a look, are there any good tips out there for cleaning/rebuilding starters?

Thanks

My advice would be not to disturb the filed coils when you take it apart. It would be helpful to feel the cables and terminations after turning it over on 6 volts. You might discover a problem area if there is significant heat.

I would make sure you need to first. That means make sure all the connections are clean and you have the heaviest wire from the battery to the starter you can find. There has been a lot of talk here on this so do a search and see if anything helps.

I've cleaned up the connections on the switch already. I can try the other end of the ground strap, but everything else is clean and original cables.

All it takes is one dirty or loose connection to slow a 6V starter down dramatically. There's not much way for debris to get inside a starter from contamination in the bellhousing. Try this- - - -just push the start switch without engaging the pinion gear to see how the starter free spins. If it winds up freely, there's no real need to dig into it. If you do decide to go further, use a mild solvent like mineral spirits to degrease everything, do not attempt to remove the field coils from the housing, and replace the brushes and bushings while you've got it apart.
Jerry

So if it spins freely without being engaged... what does that mean? I can turn the engine by hand, so it's not that.

If you did not buy/install the ground strap(s)/cables, you cannot be sure they are 2 gauge or bigger (1, 0, 00 gauge), which is needed in a 6v system. All my 6v trucks had 12v ground straps when I bought them (in 1969, 1971, 1997, 2005, 2007).

Even the reproduction truck parts sellers had the wrong gauge power&ground cables for 6v.

Jim Carter now sells 2 gauge power cables, but their ground cables might still be 4 gauge.
Chevs of the 40s now sell 1 gauge power cables, but their ground cable might still be 4 gauge.

Starting of the engine significantly improved after installing larger-gauge ground straps/cables (I now use 00 ground cables from a tractor supply store, or a welding shop or big truck shop/store).

As strongly suggested above, clean (until grease&rust free, and shiney) all contact/connection posts/surfaces and coat them with a conductive copper-impregnated anti-oxidant grease (available in a small tube at most auto parts stores). Starting will be significantly improved, and cable-ends will last much longer.

Here's one other factor some people aren't aware of. A starter works at what is essentially a "dead short" condition. Its electrical resistance is less than one ohm, a tiny fraction of an ohm, to be more specific. As the armature speeds up to its normal running speed, a situation called "counter EMF" develops, which tends to prevent the current from increasing without limit. If a starter slows down, either from insufficient battery voltage or a tight engine, the current draw starts to increase geometrically. That can kill a battery or result in internal damage to the starter.

NEVER, EVER KEEP GRINDING ON A STARTER IF IT SLOWS DOWN TO A CRAWL! You're likely to ruin both the battery and the starter.
Jerry

The original flat-braided ground straps are still on it. I will make sure both ends are clean. I have the copper-anti-seize grease, is this what I can apply to them?

All the advise is good. The rats nest could have added to corrosion of cables and connections. The fact that you were having trouble before the nest tells us that it is probably corrosion, loose cables, frayed cables, etc. (connection problems). So cable/wire, as described by others, has to be taken off and cleaned or replaced....and double checked.....Including the battery cable ends. The grease has no bearing on your immediate trouble, it is so that corrosion will be kept away. I guess in Canada it would be a good idea. I have never needed it. Anti-seize is different than copper conductive grease. They are talking conductive. Forget that until all is fixed because you may have to take it all apart several times before this is solved. Leave it all dry for now. DO NOT USE THE ANTI SEIZE.

Once you have done everything you can for the connections and it still is slow and battery is GOOD, then post again with result facts.

Taking apart a starter is no big deal. It is just a DC electric motor. No mystery. Just don't undo the big screws holding field windings/pole shoe to inside of case. Otherwise they usually have two long bolts holding the ends on. (one end, one nose). Armature out. Standard commutator cleaning/buffing, sector spacer grooves cleaning, wire check, new bushings and brushes, dab of oil on shafts, soak oil wick and back together. Study the internet for starter motor diagrams or see manual for your truck.

WARNING: The terms "copper" "grease" "Antioxidant" "Dielectric" "protective" are very confusing in the marketplace. Many Anti seize compounds use some of these words. Many will actually cause corrosion. Some are not for electrical connections. It is why you now have the wrong grease. Search, read and use if you desire. NO-OX-ID by Sanchem, Inc. would be a good choice. (no metals in this compound). Automotive type ground and 12V connections are best achieved with shinny clean surfaces and tight fastening. The copper filled greases are for very high heat situations and may also add to less contact resistance but will not add to current carrying capacity. Which means the copper serves no purpose for this discussion area.

Falicy of adding metals to increase Conductivity:
Many electrical contact greases have copper, zinc or other metals blended into a grease to increase conductivity. In a study for an aerospace company in 1985 it was concluded that putting metal into grease does not help conductivity. In many cases it reduces conductivity. The United States Department of the Interior Bureau of Reclamation states in their Facilities instruction Journal Volume 3-3 Electrical Connections for Power Circuits in section 6.3.2 that, "Use of grease with embedded zinc particles will cause a poorer connection due to the lower conductivity of zinc".

Seems to be Good looking Stuff.

Just an update, now that i'm home... depressing the switch without the pedal and it spins very fast and freely. There is some wear on the leading edge of the flywheel, could this indicate it not properly engaging?

I'm cleaning all contacts now anyway, will see if it helps.

"Turning over slowly" and "Not engaging" are two very different issues. Which is it? The reason it was suggest to spin without engage was to test the starter motor. This however does not test the starter motor OR it's connections under load. Under load, operation can change.

The engagement is done by your foot and the linkage. Not only can you test the motor by using the switch only, (as Jerry said) you can test the engagement by disconnecting the battery and operating the engagement, inspect the pinion gear on starter, turn it to let it engage the flywheel to see what you can see.

Ok, here's where I'm at. I disconnected the pedal and pushed the starter button and it spun freely. I disconnected all the cables, including the battery lead and ground and cleaned all the connections. It will kick-in and spin a few times, then slows after a second to a whine:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ArIWXwdjAuRlQci52

The battery is brand new and motors turns pretty easy by hand. It was already running and actually starts pretty quick normally. I did get a couple rotations out of the starter yesterday and it started and took it for a run, without issue.

Time to yank the starter and have a look?

Check the battery terminal voltage at the battery posts (not the cable clamps) while you're cranking. That "new" battery sounds like it's got some problems. If the voltage drops below about 4.5 volts after a few seconds of cranking, take the battery out and have it load tested. It's entirely possible there's an internal problem that's preventing the battery from delivering the current flow it's supposed to. At least 2/3 of the "no start" and "slow crank" problems on 5 volt systems I've seen are either battery-related or are caused by dirty connections or too-small cables.
Jerry

In the video you are pushing the starter button with the lever, which engages starter pinion with the flywheel. You were supposed to just push the button for one of the tests. So the video is not that test, correct? The video is the same as your foot pushing from inside cab, correct? You are showing what the starter does under normal conditions and you still confirm that the button only test still makes starter spin fast, correct?
I didn't hear a whine.

So something electrical is breaking down. (I guess that is mostly obvious.)
To wit:
1. A connection
2. A cable
3. The switch mounted to starter
4. The battery
5. The starter
6. A ground
7. Lug on inside of starter, that button makes contact with, is burnt down/worn down, breaks down under load.

Or hydraulic locked motor with water in the oil/cylinder
Or Screwed up valve train

It's always the battery in these situations and as Jerry says on a no start, it's always the points. You are not in a "no start" yet. You are in a "no crank"
If you say battery is brand new I hope you don't mean reconditioned or something other than a brand name new battery because it's always the battery. See if it still has 6.2V-6.3V.

The battery cable I see in the video looks strange, like too small, too flexible, too old? Not sure but don't like.

bartamos - you are correct, I didn't show it non-engaged in the video, as it did spin just fine when I did.

Not sure if I mentioned earlier, but I had to jump it the other day when it died on me at the lumber yard and the 12v jump spun it quickly and it started.

Jerry - I tested at the battery terminals, with starter engaging again, the lowest it dropped was 5.69v. The starter spins it a little, then it starts to kind of studder. I did the same test at the copper post on the starter and the grounding strap and got a lowest reading of 5.48v. So it does seem to be getting the voltage to it. In a strange coincidence, I just happened to pick up a starter the other day that someone local was selling cheap. I think it may be time to do a swap. It's a later model starter, without the little oil flap on it, but it looks to be compatible.

- Have you tried cranking without the plugs in it?

I have not, but I can try it if it adds value. I can turn it over by hand though and it was starting/running fine previously.

Just for information purposes a brand new battery can be bad. The 6 volt batteries sit on the shelves for months and will sulphate. About the only thing using 6 volts these days is a few tractors so the batteries just sit and wait for us Stovebolters to come along and give them a new home. I used to sell batteries in another life so I have first hand knowledge.
🛠

One thought that just occurred to me... could there be some clutch drag on the flywheel that's taxing the starter? The clutch goes right to the floor and I've been thinking about looking into an adjustment on it. Does it sound like this could be related?

All clutches can go right to the floor. I suppose you mean it takes all the way to the floor to disengage? If so, it needs adjusted. If it's in neutral it should not have any affect on this problem. You also can turn motor by hand. It ain't the clutch. Check your oil. Try it without plugs as said. All information will add up. This needs to be narrowed down. Need to make sure there is nothing wrong with motor. Probably not, now that you say it started at lumber yard and you drove home.
Slightly confusing to diagnose:
1. Good voltage test, I guess. Jerry can decide.
2. Spins good without engaging starter
3. Spins AND starts with jump
5. You say you cleaned all connections and cables are good
6. Battery is new

Jump start was a success, most likely reason it was, is your battery is bad, Jump start could be overcoming other issues but batteries are so screwy. They show good voltage and all that. They break down but still read good. HAPPENS ALL THE TIME Needs a genuine load test with good equipment and operator. FLAPS should be OK. Sooner than later. Take it back where you bought it. Also time to be thinking 12V conversion.

We usually don't tell others to start replacing this and that. We try to solve by logic, testing, troubleshooting, adjustment, settings and past experience. It is, however, a good thing you found a starter. If the donor starter does the same thing it will be a 92% chance your starter was OK. 8% chance the donor starter is also bad. If it does do the same thing it will point elsewhere. Elimination by replacement is a method that we all have to resort to from time to time especially if the parts are cheap.
So keep the faith baby. Your good effort, understanding, doing what is recommended and good reporting is an example of what we wish everybody did.
I still don't like the looks of your cables. But I can't tell from my house.

Thanks, I will keep on trucking The jump that I mentioned was on the old battery, which acted the exact same way as the new one does. Regardless, I will take it in to get tested and also try rolling it over without plugs in. On another note, I just found out that I don't have a clutch pedal return spring I have added one to my shopping list.

Good. We absolutely have to be sure that battery is good before continuing. Has to be tested by proper equipment. Bench test the donor starter if you have nothing to do. Glad you found the clutch spring problem. The rats probably used it to build some kind of workout equipment.

I had a Hallucination on this. Going along with the theory that the battery is always the problem , could it be that it is not getting a proper charge while running, to bring it up to a proper strength to spin the engine? The generator regulator system may not be working correctly and only providing enough juice to run with some help from the battery. After just reading what Bartamos said, I think the load test is in order as well. Also check to see if there is a draw on the battery that could be taking some power away. I believe there is a simple test for your generator, regulators are still a mystery to me but if you get a good test from the generator, you will need to look at the regulator and confirm it can charge the battery. If your lights dim while idling that might be an indicator something is off in the regulator. Again, an hallucination.

The generator was something that I had thought of before, but even if I charge the battery from a charger, I get the same result.

I do however have a fresh video to share. Here is another test with the spark plugs removed. Is it supposed to 'chatter' like that? Or would this indicate a bad engagement?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RsBBtbE9OuZMvxzt2

Am I the only one who's not getting any sound on the videos? If the battery voltage is only dropping 1/2 volt while the engine is cranking, there's either a VERY bad ground path or the starter actually has an internal circuit problem that's keeping it from putting much load on the battery. One more test- - - - -connect the voltmeter from the starter housing to the battery negative post or at least the negative cable clamp, assuming you've thoroughly cleaned that connection already. You'll probably need to extend one of the voltmeter leads with a jumper to do this. Crank the engine. With the starter turning, the voltmeter should read less than 1/2 volt- - - - -the lower the better. If the ground path is good, swap starters.
Jerry

Had the same trouble Jerry. Hit the arrow at top right of his video pic, wait a few seconds and vid with sound starts. If your computer sound is on

That one sounds like the starter pinion gear is only engaging about halfway into the flywheel teeth. Unless you've got the forearm strength of King Kong, it would be a good idea to use a long screwdriver as a lever and get the starter pinion engaged all the way. It's also a possibility you've got a flywheel for a 55-62 engine working against a 6 volt starter. That combination is terribly noisy because the teeth don't mesh properly. The 12 volt flywheel (late 1955-62) has 168 teeth. The 6 volt flywheel has 139.

Also, if you're trying to run a 12 volt starter on 6 volts, it will crank very slowly. A 12V starter against a 6V flywheel will also be noisy. Take the starter off the engine and clamp it to a workbench or hold it in a vise, then do a function test on it. If it still runs slowly with no load, I'll bet it's intended for a 12V engine. The quick way to identify a 12V starter is the diameter of the armature shaft, out where the gear sits. 12V starters have a 1/2" shaft- - - - -6V shafts are 5/8" in diameter.
Jerry

I read where you said that you still had the original, braided ground cable. Even though you cleaned the connections, if that is the original cable that would be my next, cheap place to look. I had the same problem you refer to on my '52 3100. Like yours, it is still running 6V, stock electrical system. I refuse to upgrade to 12V because I am stubborn. It still has the original wiring harness. Anyway, after rebuilding starter, cleaning connections, new battery, etc., I removed that braided, original ground strap. Seems that over time a LOT of those little wires that make up the braid had broken...many more of the internal ones (that I couldn't see) were no doubt broken too. I replaced that strap with a 0 or 1 gauge cable and that solved my problem.

Whoa, ok lots of suggestions. That's awesome thanks so much. So I will test the ground voltage as per Mr. Lincoln. That should let me know if the braided strap is still good.

I am leaning towards improper engagement as well. Any tips on trying to get it to engage fully? I mentioned earlier that the flywheel shows wear on the first 3/16s" of the teeth. Perhaps it's even less than that now?

Ok, voltage from battery negative to ground strap in bell housing goes to 0.1v when engaged, with the plugs still out. Should I be testing this with plugs back in?

No, that's a good ground system voltage drop. I'm leaning more toward it being a 12V starter. Pull the starter and measure the shaft diameter. The voltage measurements just aren't adding up, and there's no way to make a starter pinion/flywheel mismatch work if that's what you're dealing with.
Jerry

Well, I went ahead and swapped the starter. She fired right up without hesitation. When I look at the old starter, the gear didn't want to stay engaged when I held down the lever. I could push it back almost a 1/4" with my finger. Probably the old contact it was having with the fly wheel. I'm just fortunate that I had another starter that I just found.

Thanks everyone for your help on this (and all the other questions I've had to this point)

I'm impressed! You followed everybody's suggestions and reported on your findings in a logical fashion that allowed us to help you out. The frustrating part of long-distance troubleshooting is that virtually everybody tries to jump to conclusions and do stuff that makes no sense, or they skip an important step along the way and fail to find the source of the problem. Problems that some of us oldtimers with decades of experience would find in a matter of minutes because we use a time-proven sequence of tests sometimes takes weeks to accomplish when somebody else is turning the wrenches and taking the voltage readings! Have fun!

Don't trash the old starter- - - -they're fairly easy to rebuild.
Jerry

Congratulations, Goach2

Thanks, now to find rebuild instructions for my new 'Backup' starter