The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Any tips on buying a '56 GMC 450

Hi,

I'm trying to make a deal with a guy for a '56 GMC 450 truck. It was a water truck back in the days. The tank is of the truck now. It's a 5 window cab. There is little to no rust on the truck, just some surfuce rust.

It has air brakes, a 5 speed main transmission and 3 speed secondary transmission (not standard a think). As far as I can see the parking brake is on the tranny but it isn't working like it should.

The engine is a 302. The seller thinks at was rebuilt at some time but it could be it only received a new coat of paint.

My plans for the truck: installing a proper flatbed and using it hauling my building materials and firewood for now. After the house is finished I would like te restore the truck to it's former glory.


Do you have any tips about this type of truck for me? What to look at before buying it, availabity of parts, that kind of tips.

Thanks in advance!

Kind regards,

Sander

Hy Frozone, it sounds like you have already checked out the truck fairly well. The air brakes will make the restoration easier, check to see what wheels and tires the truck has. Heavy cast wheels (Dayton) were the factory standard but it might have all steel wheels (Budd) wheels which use an inner and outer nut system on the rear axle. Get back to us with any other questions you have, good luck.

It has the all steel wheels. 19.5 front and 22.5 at the back.
I was afraid for the widow maker style wheels but as far as I can see they are plain 1 piece wheels, nog lock rings.

The park brake normally goes on the last transmission, so since it is on the main trans., it might be true that the 'Brownie' was added later, whatever, must always make sure the 'Brownie' is in gear when using the park brake. If the park brake is a ventilated disc, that is a Tru-stop brake, shoes can be relined if needed, there is a place here in Denver, CO that does that if cannot find local place. If the brake is a cast drum, the linings are on curved shoes, local brake/clutch place can relined if needed.

302 is a good engine, parts are available.

Does it run now?

It probably does not have 'spring brakes' now which is OK, however, adding them to the rear would be good, especially if the park brake is Inop. If there is no air park brake, knob one pushes or moves before able to move truck, then no 'spring brake'.

Ed

Check your local regulations on drivers' licenses- - - -here in the USA some states require a special endorsement to drive a vehicle with air brakes.
Jerry

Ed,

thanks for the tips. The brake is a cast drum. I'll check for the park brake knob tomorrow. First time I went around the truck I mainly focused on the undercarriage and the sheet metal and less inside the cab.
It does run and drives quite well, it starts right up even when it’s cold. Nice smooth idle speed, good oil pressure so I think the engine is good. Odometer reads something about 90.000 miles and since all numbers line up perfectly I think it’s the correct mileage.

Jerry,
In The Netherlands we need a different drivers license for everything with a GVWR above 7700 lbs


Sander

I collect the old butterfly hood GMCs.

https://plus.google.com/u/1/photos/photo/112636930370126476644/6191993835626873602?icm=false

The front sheet metal is the same from 450 through 600. The cab is the same as a pickup except for the 5 window. They used a big window cab and put in a divider for the corner glass. The corner glass is very difficult to find if you break one.

Nice collection!

Note to myself; Be very carefull with the corner glass.

Any guesses on the curb weight of these trucks? Mine is a 453 with a 5 speed and a brownie 3 speed.

https://goo.gl/photos/XrELve6nHUiSKL6S6

Nice looking truck. I just bought a 1957 Series 450 myself. Former pumper truck. Converting mine to a car hauler

Looks like it already has tubeless tires, too.

Ed

Yes, it has tubeless tires and they are in good shape.

The truck is at my place know and it's great.

Have to deal with a few issues but that's OK. It losses pressure after applying the brakes a few times and as mentioned before, the parking brake isn't working. Have to replace some gaskets and the taillights aren’t working.

You mentioned something about the parking brake knob and springbrakes. Below a picture of the knob. Is this of some help to determine if it has spring brakes. (sorry no pictures of the actual brakes yet).


https://goo.gl/photos/hQS5vHSZYJ82QpgB9

Can't tell from px, if you have to pull or move a valve to move the truck, then it has spring brakes, the objective is to stop all movement if one looses air pressure, usually on rear only, trains have them, same reason.

When sitting for a while, all air bleeds off, then no brakes. If need to move a 'dead' truck, bolt in middle of brake chamber allows 'cageing' of brakes for towing, etc. Most trucks with spring brakes no longer have parking brake.

If you can move it after sitting for a while, no spring brakes.

Ed

Looks like you have a 2-stick transmission, I don't see anything that looks like a parking brake knob...Maybe I'm missing something...

Mike B.

Ok, the truck has spring brakes. I've crawled under it and checked it. Problem is they are not doing what they should. I can move the truck without air pressure and the left rear isn't moving when the brakes are applied.

Tomorrow I'm going to pressure wash the whole truck and then start checking all the components of the brake system.

New chambers are readily available(in the States, anyway), replace them in pairs, don't try fooling around fixing them.

Ed

If you can't get chambers in Europe and need some, I will be in Germany on the Holland border next month. I am accustomed to carrying spare parts to Europe.

Wow, Ken, you can't beat that for service.

Ed

Ken,

I might take you on that offer if I can't find them overhere.Thanks!

First I have to determine wich ones I need. Pressure washed the truck yesterday so I can start identifying the parts.

Don't waste time at auto parts place, there will not know what you are talking about, go to big truck place.

Ed

I had little time after work today so I took Some pictures of the brake components;

https://goo.gl/photos/ZskZW6CMZuNhZWJD7

https://goo.gl/photos/CZAWtJPCf4gbGj229

https://goo.gl/photos/riAMgFceV2Btu5r87

https://goo.gl/photos/WMXN6onc3ycnXzpK8


https://goo.gl/photos/TiELVcSAifgNZgyC9

The driverside brake chamber is, based on the part number a 30/24. Is this different than a 24/30? Based on the prices I found online I think it is, since the 30/24 is almost 3 times the price of a 24/30.

On the passengerside one, I could not find any other ID then the MGM brand name and an us patent number.

Both are standard stroke I think.

Could I replace both with in exempel 30/30 units?

Can any of you identify the compressor I've got on the truck?

Thanks!

The numbers refer to the square inches of the diaphragm. One of them appears to be a 24 service brake with a 30 spring brake. A 30/30 would fit, but it would would give you more braking power on the drive axle which could cause the the rear brakes to lock up on wet pavement.

I see 24/30" on German eBay pretty reasonable. In German spring brakes are Federspeicher Trommelbremse. I don't know enough Dutch to find them on eBay.NL. I am quite sure they are the same size mounting as US, but you might check. US 24 and 30 are both 4.75 or 120.7 mm between mounting bolt centers. You need to make store that you get one with a long plunger that you can saw off at the correct length. US clevis are 5/8 fine thread. The old clevises are probably rusted tight. I keep a bucket of clevises on hand and don't even try to remove a clevis that has seen salted roads.

I will be meeting a guy from Holland at an old car show in May 13.
http://www.motmontfort.nl/joomla/
He recently sold his trucking business.

The compressor looks like an old Bendix Westinghouse Truflo400. They are pretty obsolete and are usually replaced with Truflo 501 compressors. The old BW compressors usually keep on pumping air but are replaced because oil gets into the air which is no big deal.

The valve you show looks like a quick release valve. They are called a Bendix QR valve.

I also answered your PM.

Thanks for the information!

I've found the spring brakes on Ebay.de but those are long stroke units, mine are standard stroke units. They are interchangeable I guess as long as you change both sides at the same time?

Are you attending the MOTMontfort show? Never heard of it before but maybe I’ll visit the show.

Standard stroke and long stroke really don't make any difference. In the US,anything over a 2" stroke is a DOT violation. With long stroke chambers you can go 2 ½". With automatic slack adjusters that are properly functioning, the stroke stays at about 1" anyway
I use the long stroke just as a precaution if the automatic slacks don't work right, the longer stroke gives me a little more protection against a violation. The extra stroke only comes into play as your linings wear. A long stroke on one side and a standard stroke on the other makes no difference.

I am going to meet my friend from NL at the show. I have a room at Selfkant, Germany from Friday the 14th until Sunday the 16th. Our friends suggested we meet at the show. If you decide to come, I can give you my handy number so we can find each other. It is on T-Mobile and works better in Europe than it does here. And I get free data roaming all over Europe.

Haven't done a lot on the truck the last few weeks. It was tax return season so I was busy at the office.

I did find some parts for it (weatherstripping,exhaust, new taillights, a different flatbed) and I will be working on the truck again this weekend.

Ken, I've sent you a private message about some parts. Are you still attending the car show next week?

Hi everybody,

Making slow progress on the truck, most of the parts arrived this weekend.

Just a few parts left to order and I really can use your help;

Do you know a simple way to identify the size of the front air brake chambers. I don't know if I need t-9, t12 or bigger. The best measurement I can take without jacking the truck up it has a diameter of a bit more than 4 inches just in front of the clamp.


Then there are the mirrors; on the driverside the mirror is stained and on the passenger side the glass is gone. Does anyone of you know where I can find replacement mirrors?

If attached picture of the mirror for example.


Thanks again in advance

https://goo.gl/photos/Zq7HMiG6u7NC5R5h9

https://goo.gl/photos/Z4LAXDCeoLH6bd6S9

Google West Coast Mirrors there are thousands of them available. Complete mirror assembly to just replacement mirror heads.🛠

In the US 16"x6" mirrors were standard for many years and they are available everywhere. The Grote number is 16202

https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/grote-16202/west-coast-mirror-head-6x16"-black-economy-p-w38-16202


A 450 should have been fitted with a type 9 chamber. Haldex still makes them.

https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/haldex-sc09/brake-chambers-type-9-p-v19-sc09

Thanks again for the advice! I didn't know what to look for with the mirrors. I did some searches on old truck mirrors on google but nothing like mine showed up. With the correct name of the mirrors I did find a lot of them thanks!

I'll order the chambers from Ryder fleet I think.

Another question; I've got 19,5 wheel up front and 22,5 at back. I really would like to have 22,5 at the front as well. Over here I can't find the correct bolt pattern (6 lugs) but a friend of mine offered to cut out the centers of the 19,5 wheel en weld them in some 22,5 wheel he has laying around. Would this be i wise route to take or does anybody know where to find 22,5 wheel that can be shipped to The Netherlands

22.5's with 6 lug Budd's are pretty common over here, should be some there, I would keep looking, however, shipping might not be too bad, especially if can be included with another shipment.

Ed

Any tips on where to look for them? Craigslist? Could not find them on EBay.

In The Netherlands all 22,5 are 10 lugs so no change on finding them over here.

Shipping would not be a big problem. There are containers with parts and cars leaving the USA for Europe every week or so I think. There is Always space for 2 extra wheels I guess.

Hi,

Im back working on the truck again, started sorting out the wiring.

Near the axle I've found two loose wires. Giving the location I think they might be for a two speed rear axle but on the axle I can't find a place to connect them. In the cab there's no switch for a two speed axle. I've followed the wires to the cab but they disappear in a taped bundle of wires going into the cab.

My questions are;

Does anyone of you know where the wires are for?

Can you help me ID the axle. I think it's a two speed but maybe they have removed the motor for selecting high / low?


https://goo.gl/photos/KLCcFpg6MXYnUCVz5

https://goo.gl/photos/9zr1QSbhJHnBorim7

https://goo.gl/photos/SW7rZWYhukr8j89R7

Shift motor should fit on left side, barely shown in photo. Ratios are shown, slow and slower.

Ed

No shift motor on the left side as far as I can see.

https://goo.gl/photos/mp5WcJwcbX5BkSLv8

Probably it has been removed in the past.

Now I hope it's locked in the high ratio to be the least slow as possible. Otherwise 30 mph will be my top speed...

Haven't driven the truck for more then a 1/2 mile straight so no idea what the top speed is.

About all I can tell you is you have a Timken-Detroit Axle Company rear (pre Rockwell)...look like a double reduction type...need crenwelge to weigh in on this one!

Mike B

you probably have some variant of this H350 Timken axle.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP3SonHOgvLbAV5CPxUJMg_NtucB4oRJPhXhDYO

They were put behind Hydramatics. They had a real wide split. You ran the Hydramatic through the gears in low range and then started all over in high range. It was common to lock them in high range when a Hydra went bad and was replaced with a standard.

Thanks Guys!

Crenwelge, your photo link does not work.

I found the parts ID tag in the glovebox; It says the truck has a 2342483 rear axle and a Clark 205V 5DD transmission.

The top speed isn't a real issue since the speed limit for trucks is 50 mph overhere. But in the future I would like to run this speed at lower RPM's so is there a possibility to regear this axle?

Also, Clark transmissions that have an O in the MN, 205OV, are OD versions, however to make OD, they replace 3rd gear, making for a very large gap going from 2nd to 4th, not quite so bad with a working 2 speed.

Ed