The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop **SOLVED** What's that sound???

Welcome contestants! Today's "what's that sound?" is brought to you by the Hill Boy's in Gilbert, AZ. If you can identify that sound, you will be awarded.....

Well, nothing except sincere appreciation (assuming that it's nothing major)

So, Ryan and I are trying to start the 235. We are bypassing the ignition in the cab and just have a remote starter connected to the battery/coil. 12v battery and coil. Truck got to just the point where it sounded like it was going to start but never did. However, when I would tell Ryan to kill the starter, it sounded like something was still spinning (fly wheel?) and then came to a very abrupt stop which included a very loud "clunk". Neighbor thought it might be the starter not fully retracting and then catching on something. I'm assuming that I need to pull the starter and check if it's retracting properly but wanted to get other opinions.

As far as not starting, any suggestions on what is preventing it from starting? Like I said, it sound's like it's right there. It hasn't been started in who knows how long. I put new spark plug wires on it (there were none) and attempted to get the engine at TDC on the first cylinder and then aligned the rotor to plug #1. We weren't 100% sure if we saw the correct mark in the flywheel cover. There are quite a few things that "look" like marks. I'm going to go buy an new distributor cap and see about points/condenser.

We don't have it hooked up to the fuel pump. Just pouring a little gas in the carb.

Thanks in advance!

Your neighbor may be correct.
As for the "Almost There", I think your timing is still off. You should not see a "mark" through the hole in the flywheel cover. You should see what looks like a BB welded to the flywheel. The problem is #1 piston will be at TDC twice. The easiest way without pulling the valve cover off is to pull #1 plug and crank the engine slowly in short bursts until your finger is blown off the #1 hole. Then look for the BB. Adjust slightly clockwise or counter clockwise until BB is centered. Take off the distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointing and place the plug wires accordingly. Replace the cap and try again.🛠

It is unlikely that the flywheel is still spinning. I have never heard of ring gear coming loose from the flywheel, but it is held on by mostly imagination. They are removed from the flywheel by heating the ring gear.

It sounds like the the starter is the culprit.

Thank you! We tried to do exactly what you mentioned. We'll give it another go today and see if we can find the BB.

Ok, pulled the starter so that I can check it out later. I then moved the flywheel with a screw driver, notch by notch, cleaning the surface as I go. I came to the spot that we marked the other day. Definitely not a BB. Moved it forward about another 1-2 inches and found the BB. So, marked it with some of my daughters white nail polish and them moved it up to the center of the timing hole.

Put new spark plugs in. Trying to replace condenser/points. The adjustment screw only turns so much either direction. How do I get the contact support off?

The Hill Boys--will be in Tucson for 10 days--Know where i can find a 848 Head for a 235. Have a 49-3100--thanks Bill

Sent you a pm

So, I bought a new distributor cap, points and condenser. When I went to put the cap on, it didn't fit. To tall for one. A tad bigger diameter also.

I took a picture of the inside of the distributor and it's a Delco Remy 1112362-2316. Looking this up on Google seems to indicate that its for a 216. The engine in there now is a 1955-ish 235 from a truck (I think). So, I bought something that I thought would fit a 1955 235. That explains the cap not fitting. What about the points/condenser? They fit inside and appear to be identical to what I removed. Should I remove them and put the old ones back in? Which then leads to the next question....is this really for a 216 and that is part of my problem (need a distributor for a 235)?

The 216 distributor will fit and run in a 235, as long as the distributor gear and the camshaft are compatible. Someone with better information than me will be along to expand on that subject, but it involves a possible mismatch between a cast iron cam VS a steel cam and the corresponding distributor drive gears. The cap and rotor must match the distributor, as there are at least two different heights. A short rotor with a tall cap will result in no spark reaching the plug wire terminals.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry! So, condenser/points for the 235 are ok within the 216?

Am I to "assume" that since the dizzy was in the truck that fitment was more or less taken care of at the time or could be the root cause of the starting issues?

The points are simply an on/off switch to control the current flow through the coil primary. The condenser acts as a shock absorber to shunt the 100+ volt surge created in the primary winding by the collapsing magnetic field away from the points momentarily to prevent point burning. Neither one makes much of a difference when working on 6 or 12 volts.

Adjust the points to the specified gap (.016", I think) with the rubbing block on the high point of one of the cam lobes. That should allow the points to stay closed through about 2/3 of the distance between high spots on the cam. That's when the magnetism in the coil is building up to provide a spark the next time the points open. The spark happens just as the points break. With the BB on the flywheel aligned with the pointer with the engine stopped, turn the distributor housing clockwise until the points close, then turn CCW until they barely open. Lock the adjustment down- - - -the timing will be set close enough to start the engine.

Now take the #1 spark plug out, plug the hole with your thumb, and have someone tap the starter pedal a little at a time until a puff of compression blows your thumb off the hole. Remove the distributor cap and find which cap tower the rotor is pointing toward. That's going to be the place to put the #1 spark plug wire. Follow the firing order clockwise around the cap- - -5-3-6-2-4. The timing and firing order are set- - - -the engine should start. Have fun!
Jerry

Thanks again Jerry!

We validated where we thought was TDC on #1 today and were correct with our initial setting so should be good there.

Our first couple of starting attempts were without the radiator installed. It was out when we got the truck (red flag). We found that that radiator leaked badly so we found another one. That one was missing the drain cock. Once one of those was installed, water/coolant leaked from the lower hose. Bought a new hose. Refilled. Now water leak profusely out of the water intake gasket. Took it off today and not much of a gasket was left. Both surfaces were corroded. I cleaned them up, bought a new gasket, tightened the intake bolts. I didn't tighten too tight for fear of shearing the bolt. Filled up with water and still leaking out of the intake gasket and also the water pump itself.

So, we are starting to get to a cross road. We don't know if the engine in the truck is good or not. Compression was low on three cylinders. Oil was a little milky looking when I first drained it, seemed to clear up then got a little milky at the end. Ryan bought a running 235 with a 4 speed transmission a few weeks ago, in anticipation that the one currently in the truck was bad. So, should we continue to try to get the current one running, or just stop wasting time and pull it and put in the other one? We still have tons of other to work to do (brakes, tank, fuel line, etc). Just seems that putting in the other engine/transmission would give us "positive" progress where as right now, I'm starting to get those "tired of failure" feeling creeping in.

It's not absolutely necessary to have coolant in the engine just to start it for a short time. We ressurected two dead soldiers at the homecoming last weekend with no coolant in them, and ran them for 2-3 minutes each with no apparent damage. One quick trick is to duct tape a garden hose into the water pump inlet, leave the fan belt off, and trickle water into the engine until it runs out of the thermostat housing a little. As long as the block is full of water, you can idle an engine for an extended period of time that way. Just have the vehicle outside or over a floor drain to get rid of the overflow.
Jerry

RON/Ryan, it is my personal opinion...............you are beating a dead horse. Drop the 235 in and drive.

Thanks Jerry. Mostly, I need to stop putting coolant in until I get all the leaks squared away. Getting tired of cleanup it up off the garage floor!

We are leaning in that direction Martin. Even if we dropped in the other engine, we still have a long ways to go to be driving it. But it would be satisfying to start it up and here it run....as well as being able to back it into the garage under it's own power rather than pushing it up a slight incline!

At least dead horses don't complain when you beat them, but that's a good point- - - - -if you've got a known good engine, swap it out and rebuild the original if you want to. I've got a Dodge V6 that fits two of my trucks, 10 years apart in age. The idea is to build up a spare, and swap it into whichever one needs an engine first, then play musical chairs with the take-out engine once it's rebuilt. I'll always have a spare built up and ready if things work out the way I plan.
Jerry

**SOLVED** The starter mechanism didn't have the spring attached to retract the starter completely. Ironically, there was a spring laying up near the radiator that I had seen before but hadn't given any thought to. Also, the engine started and ran perfectly for about 10 seconds! Quiet and smooth! We can't get it to do it again though. There is something up with the distributor. Having some intermittent spark issues. But after hear the engine run like it did, it sounds very solid. Also, when it did start, it did it instantly. No hesitation, or anything. Ryan hit the starter and it started immediately. Stunned us both. So, looks like the engine is staying!!!

Ron & Ryan,

Glad to hear you are making some headway. That has to be very encouraging. Sounds like you are well on your way to getting all of wrinkles worked out.

Rugo

Well, one tiny step forward, three leaps backwards, or so it seems. The "brief" smooth engine start as yet to be replicated. Not sure what the conditions were that allowed that to happen, but now various adjustments I'm sure have sent me well past that particular happy point.

In the process of trying to start the engine, we had water/coolant coming out of the water inlet gasket. Got that sort of sealed up, then it was leaking from the water pump gasket. Got that sealed up, now it appears to be leaking from around the pulley? How does one resolve that?

Hopefully, going to get a rebuilt carb put on next week and see what difference that makes.

Are you resurrecting this engine from an non operational status or have you just re built it? Are you talking about the pulley on the water pump or the balancer? Had to ask, don't know the history of this thread.

If the leak is at the water pump pulley, you may need a water pump. A quick way to check is to grab the fan blade and check for movement from front to rear at the water pump shaft. If you can get the tester that puts pressure on the radiator that will allow you to check for leaks at the shaft and anywhere else.

If you have water at the balancer, it probably coming from somewhere else and collecting there somehow.

Attempted to resurrecting. It's coming from the pulley at a pretty good clip. When we bought the truck that radiator had been pulled so I'm sure that was the reason that was one of the causes for it being parked. At least I have learned to just fill with hose water rather than loosing distilled water/coolant.