The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Is the motor frozen, or just stuck? "it ran when I parked it there"

Make sure you put the distributor back in so the oil pump will turn. Don't worry about ignition timing right now, just make sure the pump drive tang on the shaft engages the pump. 2-3 gallons of Diesel will be about right.
Jerry

This is a true story!

Just an update. My girlriends Jeep project, and our garden building have taken away some of my 59 time. That and random Grandpa projects. Last weekend I cleaned everything I could reach and spun the motor a few more times by hand. It still binds up in one place a bit. At least one lifter is stuck. I tried the diesel idea last night. I was goign to soak, but since I used the old oil pan gasket, it leaked out of the low spot. I spun the starter, but it froze on the bound spot, so not sure if I accomplished anything.

Just before that, I snapped a picture of the lifter that is stuck from the bottom. I used the scope someone mentioned before. https://twoheelers.tumblr.com/ It is a bit rusty. I am going to start pulling the top end apart, and probably the entire motor eventually.

I would like to get this one running if possible, but my father says he has an early 60's 1.5 ton with a 6 that "ran when he parked it there". I can have the motor if I want it, not sure if it is a 261 or not, I will go pull the numbers sometime.

Hey, what is the correct way to clean the cylinders (and why not the gas?)

As an update, I have been spending whatever free time I have had the past few weeks cleaning the motor. I scraped and turned and picked every flake of rust I could find. I even used and ice pick like a dental tool. Then I soaked in diesel, and repeated, multiple times. I think it is clean. I can turn the motor with the starter. I did one last soak in diesel this weekend. I am goign to drain it, pull the oil pump, clean that up, and then put it all together. At his point, it will either fire and run, or not, and I will go from there.

My only real question is how to clean the MMO and Kroil out of the cylinders? My uncle wants to put gas in to mix with the oils, and leave the plugs out so that some can evaporate after spinning again. We also talked about spinning each piston high, one at a time, and trying to soak/suck whatever oil is on top out.

Thanks, and I will let you know how the test fire goes.

If you haven't used anything abrasive in the cylinders, don't worry about doing any cleanup at all. Just spin the crankshaft with the starter with the spark plugs removed to push any excess liquid out. Yes, it will be messy! The extra oil on the rings will help develop compression pressure. The first few minutes of running after you get it to fire up will be VERY smoky as the oil and other stuff in the cylinders burns out- - - -then the exhaust should clear up gradually. Just give the neighbors a heads-up about what's going on so nobody calls the fire department!
Jerry

Does this 261 have full flow filtration? Would suspect there could still be some crusty bits hiding somewhere. Having the full flow in place might catch some of the bigger ones.

It is a 59, and I believe that it does. It looks like this graphic:

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1959trucksup/59ctsms0803.html

I am sure there are some crusty bits, and odds are the motor is junk like everyone is saying. I had to tap the stuck lifters and valves loose with a hammer, at least one of the rods may be slightly bent.

That being said, if I can get it to fire, I am going to run it long enough to get warm, then shut down, drain the oil, and change the filter (which I already bought). If it runs, great, I am ahead of the game. If not, it was a good hands on learning experience for me, and I will either re-build, or put my fathers motor in. Actually, I think I will put my fathers motor in so I can drive the truck and work on other things, and rebuild the existing motor for the long term.

I like your plan. Get us a video of the startup!

One of the push rods is bent or a connecting rod? If it's the former, it would be worth your time to try straightening before starting.

cameras will be rolling for sure. Fire extinguishers on standby, maybe a hockey mask just in case.

So I am new to mechanics, it is the rod that is over the lifters that are manipulated by the cam lobes. It pushes up the thing that looks like an oil derrick on top that opens and closes the valves. I can't tell if it is slightly bowed, or if the rust stain on the back is giving an optical illusion as I am spinning it by hand. I keep meaning to put a straight edge on them.

What is the proper method for straightening? (Grandpa says it is not bent enough to bother "fire in the hole, she will run!")

Find a piece of glass like an old windowpane that will support the pushrod almost end to end, and roll it over the glass. When you find the bent spot, clamp the pushrod in a smooth-jaw vise and gently tweak the bend out of it. Making several small adjustments is better than over-bending it and having to flex it excessively.
Jerry

The rod you have described is the push rod. Jerry described how to check for straightness.

Might want to think about a cold valve adjustment while you're at it. Grandpa is going to hate all these extra steps.

Grandpa is on the beach in Mexico this weekend, so we are pushing through on projects. I just tore the deck off of his water tank/car hauler trailer, and hopefully it will be put back together this weekend. Of course that is going to mean less 59 time.

I read the shop manual on a valve adjustment a couple weeks back during a soak. Actually, I read the entire motor chapter. Lots of words I did not understand, but I will read through it again, it always makes more sense the second time around.

Holy hell she runs:

https://twoheelers.tumblr.com/post/159961811449/she-lives


I spent 3 plus weeks scraping as much rust out of the motor as possible. Ran diesel through a couple of times, cleaned all of the rust particles out of the pan, cleaned the motor again etc.

Last week, I decided it was as clean as it was going to get, and put the oil pan back on tight (on the old gasket) and filled it with new oil. I poured oil all over the top while filling. I put the rod panel back on with a new gasket, and buttoned up all of the dangly things that were laying around. Left the valve cover off so I could watch for oil.

My father randomly came by one day soon after and offered to help me start it. After recovering from shock, I called in to work, and we tinkered all day. Took the carb apart and banged and tapped and blew to try and get all of the moving parts working, without doing a rebuild. I noticed that the gasket had a chunk missing, and had for a while, so I am hoping that was the idle issue the truck had when parked. We took the starter apart, removed the dead scorpion, and my father cleaned it up. Huge difference in power after. Did some tests, and determined that the coil was bad, so we replaced it, and a couple of rat chewed wires.

Put some fuel in the bowl, squirted the tube, tried to start, nothing. Blew up a battery in my fathers face, but the truck would not start. After hosing him off, we tried more fiddling, turned the distibutor, choked the carb, nothing. Took all the plugs out and cleaned them, cleaned the points, put it all back together. Nothing. My father said that it wanted to start, but the motor was not spinning fast enough, and we would have to tow it. We spent the rest of the day trying to prime the brakes. The master cylinder cap was cross threaded and I almost could not get it off, and there was dust blowing around in the reservoir. Luckily for my life, the sun went down before we built enough pressure.

So this weekend, I went back to the original dead motor paper and read through it a couple more times, to sort of re calibrate. In my ignorance I assumed that when I pulled the distributor out, it could only go back in one way because of the slot on the oil pump, but I decided to test that out. With some private message help from forum members, I found the bb on the flywheel (I had been looking on the harmonic balancer), painted a white stripe on it, shined a light through the hole by the starter, and turned the motor by hand from underneath until they lined up. I could just see the shadow by squinting and looking up through the the bell housing while rotating the flywheel. Got out, checked, read some things, got some more PM advice, decided that I was 180 degrees off. Spun the motor one more time. Piston was high on number one, both rods were loose to spin, valves looked like they were supposed to...distributor was pointing at #5.

So, talked to various people in real life and on the forums. That involved drinking, so my mechanic day ended. Sunday, I took the distributor out again, and spun the oil pump by drill. Oil came out of the holes on some rocker arms, leaked a bit where the the feeder tube comes out of the block, but the drill never tried to jerk out of my hands as described on the tech paper. I lined the distributor back up properly to #1, turned it clockwise until the points closed, turned it counter clockwise until they started to open, and tightened the clamp (per this forums advice on another thread). I then spent eh rest of the day hunting for a sparkplug to replace the one I cracked, and rigging up the temporary gas tank. I was also killing time hoping for my father to come by. That day ended.

Yesterday, my cousin/uncle with the shop down the hill where I did the lift kit on the Jeep stopped by. I conned him into helping me start it. I brought him up to speed on my timing adventures, he agreed it looked correct. We put the plugs back in, checked the firing order, abandoned my leaky gas tank setup, siphoned directly out of a gas can, choked the carb by hand, and.... it started. The most beautiful sound ever. She died once, and we fired again, this is the video I posted. No oil pressure built, so I killed it and ended the firing for now. I pulled the oil filter, which looks to never have been changed before, and put the reservoir back in without a filter. His advice was to see if oil flowed, then drain everything after verifying pressure, or seepage at the rocker arms. That is todays adventure if I am not rescuing cows from a forest fire.

So, thank you to all who helped. A lot. I realize that the motor is probably junk, and will probably sieze soon anyway, but for someone who has never worked on cars before, this was a powerful experience. I am very much looking forward to all of the next steps, even if it includes an engine rebuild.

And, if anyone is still reading, I have a question about the oil pressure. Stupid I am sure, but.... Is it possible to have the distributor in far enough to spin from the cam gears, but not far enough to slip into the oil pump slot? It felt like it seated, but I don't have any experience to know what I am feeling. How much shaft is supposed to be exposed on the distributor coming out of the motor?

Thanks

Well congratulations on getting it running. I never thought that I would read those words about that motor!

Yes it is possible to have the distributor in enough to run but not seated in the oil pump. What I like to do is align the oil pump with a screwdiver so that the distributor will not seat. I then insert the distributor and observe how high it sits not seated. I then know that it has to go about 3/8" deeper.

well, that makes complete sense. Duh, thank you

Ok, to wrap this thread up.

Grandpa suggested turning the motor while pushing down on the loose distributor to get it to seat in the pump. Freaking genius. Moot, because as soon as I loosened the screw clamp, it dropped down into the slot. I am sure someone smarter than me can calculate those odds, but I though the tip for pushing down would be good for someone searching this topic in the future.

Oil pressure built like gangbusters, here is a newer, better video of the motor running:

https://twoheelers.tumblr.com/post/160015475436

I am draining the oil now, and will flush with diesel, and drop the pan one more time. Going to make a run for some new plugs and wires and hoses, couple more oil filters, and a few cases of oil. The plan is to change the oil often in the near future.

Next step is to test the fuel pump with a five gallon bucket, and try to figure out if the tank is rusted. Rebuild the carb, and figure out why brake fluid is leaking down a rear tire.

New life goal, drive this thing in the Fourth of July parade.

Thanks again all.

That video sounds a lot like the two dead soldiers we resurrected at the homecoming over the weekend! Good on ya for hanging in there!
Jerry

odds are the motor will still fail, but I am freaking ecstatic that it fired.

You are fortunate to have a 261 in your truck. Finish getting it cleaned up inside with the oil flushes wash off the outside and paint er up.
Most 261 were Green not Grey as were the 216/235 engines. Alpine Green like on the early Detroit Diesel rattlers.

Looking forward to the phase where I am painting and detailing things!

Do yourself a favor and rebuild that engine before it starts tossing pieces out the side. 261's are scarce enough that it's a shame to let one hand grenade if it can be salvaged. If you can find a running 235 to drop in there for the time being it will let you play around with the truck while the 261 is getting rehabbed.
Jerry

I thought about doing that. There are a couple of inline sixes from the 60's floating around here, I have not pulled the numbers off of them yet. Will they bolt up? I know at least the starter is different, but I really have not taken a close look at what it would take.

Very early 60's engines, like 60, 61, 62, etc. will bolt in. Anything 63 and up won't- - - - -those will be 194, 230, 250, or 292 cubic inch engines, with the same bellhousing shape as a V8. 216, 235, and 261 engines will be a bolt-in swap, or pretty close, at least.
Jerry

1959 was the last year for front side mounts, so 1960 and later will be a problem with front mounting. 1955-59 will drop right in.

One of the motors is on an abandoned well rig just over yonder ---> and all exposed, so I walked over with coffee to look at it. Pretty sure I would have to take the transmission as well, but I think that would be fine if the lengths were the same. It is middle side mounted vs the front side mounts that my truck has, but I cannot swear to the originality of that. The mounts were fabricated. The alternator and oil filter look like they may be in the way if I tried to rig a front mount. People do things like that all the time around here though, so if there was no permanent modifications done to the truck, I bet someone could talk me through it.

My fathers in line six is also from the 60's with the non push button starter. Alternately, he has a 50's era 283 small block floating around somewhere. Not sure on the bolt up of that.

Around these parts, people collect old cars and trucks obsessively, and hate the "gutless pig six cylinders" so odds are good I could find one to at least borrow.

As an update, I dropped the oil pan after the test fire, and another internal diesel bath. There is still some rust sludge turning up at the bottom of the pan, although there is a lot less of it, and it is finer than the first few times.

The new plan is to continue flushing with diesel until no more particles. My uncle wants to actually start it with only diesel in it, this makes me decidedly nervous, any thoughts?

If we don't kill the motor doing this, and can stop the particles, I will put it back together, again, and run compression tests on the cylinders. That will go a long way to deciding about the rebuild. The motor insides look all shiny and new now, so I feel like I am making progress.

On a side note, I have a rare, vintage, original issue 1959 upper radiator hose for sale. Only serious offers please.

The trick to the Diesel fuel treatment is to run a regular fill of cheap motor oil (30 weight non-detergent, for instance) for lubrication, and add enough Diesel to make the crankshaft and rods dip down into the oil/Diesel mix. I like to add 2-3 quarts, maybe a gallon at most. That creates an agitator effect like a washing machine, while still pumping enough lubricant to the bearings to prevent scoring. Straight Diesel would probably end up with damaged bearings and/or a scored crankshaft.
Jerry

ok, that makes a lot more sense to me. Just to be clear,
you are filling it with the recommended quantity of oil, and then adding a gallon of diesel?

Yes, the idea is to overfill the engine enough to turn the crankshaft and rods into splashers to power-wash everything the splash reaches. You need at least some oil in the mix to keep lubricating the bearings, and definitely DO NOT drive the vehicle. The crank can spin freely with no load on the bearings with very little lubrication necessary.

It's not uncommon to get some leaks past oil seals and gaskets due to the high liquid level in the crankcase- - - -don't worry about it.
Jerry

I have been following this thread since it first began, and now I wonder why no one has barged in and asked why in the world is someone spending so much time trying to fix this pile of heap?
The best answer I can come up with for "that guy", is why not?
The OP is learning a lot by "doing". Everyone else is learning along the way.
It has become like a book that you just can't put down.
(Books are those things which are made of mostly paper and have words in them.)
Carl

So, the truck itself, I have fantasized about a late 50's Chevy since I was 5. More specifically, this truck had family history, seems everyone has a story about driving it as a kid. Even more to point, my Grandfather wants it to run again.

Me messing with the motor is more for my own self satisfaction and experience. I am learning as you said. It is a hands on classroom. I have no mechanic experience, so an inline 6 is a good simple starting point. Plus, it is the original motor. Plus, everyone said I could not fix it (which still prove out true.

Also, I like the idea of an underpowered put around motor in that truck for some reason. There are big blocks, and small blocks, and cummins and cats that I can drop in it just laying around, but everyone has something like that here. My buddy is fairly convinced the next motor he drops in his Jeep will achieve 10,000 hp, and that is just on of a dozen of his projects. I just want to drive the old ranch truck to the lumber yard.

I don't know how underpowered it really is. That 261 (in good condition) is going to produce a lot of torque and should pull the truck and just about any conceivable load you could put on it.

That said, Jerry gave some very sound advice a few posts back when he recommended pulling the 261 (relatively scarce) and finding a running 235 donor engine. Probably still fine to do the "running flush" procedure with the diesel added. But given what you started with I'm still thinking it's running on borrowed time without a proper rebuild.

I'm very impressed at the perseverance you've shown in cleaning up the rusty mess and staying after it. Many folks would have given up at that point. This story is really a great one to follow.

My second cousin was telling me about a trip to haul grain from Wilcox with the massive side racks on the bed. He claimed he got it up to 55, I am assuming that was unloaded. It was an all day trip back then.

If I can find a drag and drop motor, I will plug one in. If the compression tests come back bad, I will yank this one regardless.

Serious question here. Assuming it was just surface rust, what is the worst case failure scenario? Barring a full re-build, are there less aggressive preventative maintenance items I can do, or is that just duct taping a real issue? For example, pull the pistons out of the bottom and put new rings, or replace the cam, or... I don't know enough to know what I don't know.

For those that are interested, I am going to start a project journal for the truck, I may get to it tonight. At first it will be a re-hash of a lot of this thread, but streamlined and spread out. Please do follow and chime in with advice, I genuinely need and appreciate the help.

Anything other than a full teardown and overhaul will be a Band-Aid fix. It's impossible to get the pistons out the bottom- - - -they won't clear the crankshaft and the block webbing, and if you did get them out, compressing the rings to get them back into the cylinders would be virtually impossible.

With the amount of rust damage your first few pics showed, I'm guessing you're looking at a $3K overhaul cost, minimum, with cylinder reboring, new pistons, new cam and lifters, and possibly new pushrods and rocker arms plus all the bearings. An in the frame "rebuild" with new rings, rod and main bearings, and gaskets will be around $600.00 but the lifespan of a job like that will be measured in months, not years.
Jerry

Well, I am not opposed to the full build, although I would like a better shop than I am working out of now.

I did put a roof on my shop yesterday: https://twoheelers.tumblr.com/post/160165797924/i-put-an-addition-on-my-garage

I have not quite figured out the long term, so in the short, I am goign to keep flushing the motor, and if I drive it, it will be short light trips. Hopefully I will not scatter the motor in the mean time.

Here's what I would do. These engines are tough. Get it running so you can drive it around a little to listen for rods knocking and the sort. If you don't here that, you won't be hurting anything.
More importantly, you will have the awesome self-gratification from saying, "Look what I did!"