The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Is the motor frozen, or just stuck? "it ran when I parked it there"

Well, I almost posted a question as to if that could be an issue, then deleted it. The cover for the flywheel was missing, and there was at least a wasp nest up on top, if not more. Rats were all through this truck. There is an inline 6 on a retired well driller rig over yonder, I think it may be a mid 60's. I am going to check on the cover and the dipstick to see if they match.

How was the trip to town? Ran good huh? Awesome.

As they used to sing on HEE HAW...and THPPPP ( attempt at a raspberry) ....HE WAS GONE!

Tim

ha ha. Normal life kept me away from teh truck for a couple of days, so it just sat there soaking (kroil is still shipping). Saturday morning I crawled under to rotate the engine some more. Back and forth a few times through the 270 degrees until I wedged it again. Being an impatient bastard, I got a bigger lever. This was a manual tire changing lever for the old torturous tire machine in the front yard, it has a weird 90 on one end. If you turn the tires all the way to one side, and put it over the leaf spring, and invert the 90 up into the flywheel housing. There is just enough arm movement to rotate one tooth. I found this afterwards. Initially, no movement. I strained hard enough to destroy the ligaments in both shoulders, bend the corner of the flywheel tooth, and flex the bell housing enough to move the motor mount around in it's bracket. The motor moved. One tooth. I did this for an arc of about 30 degrees, one tooth at a time, until the chalk mark I put on the flywheel went around the 360 mark. I torqued on the otherside to straighten out the teeth on the flywheel, time will tell if I ruined it or not, but I think it will still line up with the starter. After I laid under the truck, rotating the motor one tooth at a time, for as many rotations as I could before my arms stopped working. It moves nice and smooth in some areas, still tight in others. I re-applied MMO, put the plugs back in, and commenced to drinking.

This morning (Sunday), I was sup before the chickens, under the truck, rotating the motor (yes I pulled the plugs). Still tight in areas, but it will spin with the bar all the way around. I cannot spin it by hand yet. My shoulders made me stop after an hour, so I made up more chores. I drained the oil, and it turns out that the white milky watery oil was blow the dipstick, so I did not see it. A little clump plopped out, but then it was mostly oil. I came in just now to print up the page about the oil filter, so I can change that as well. I am going to pull the valve cover gasket, pour new oil on, disconnect the fuel pump, and maybe see if I can get the starter to turn the engine for me.

Will post updates later, we may still fire it up this weekend.

While you have the oil drained and before refilling it put the plug back in and fill the radiator with straight water. Let it set a day or two (if you have a radiator pressure pump you can speed up the process) and pull the oil drain plug. Water, you got bigger problems no water then fill with oil and proceed to try starting it up.
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Glad to hear you got it to turn 360 degrees Patience, lubrication and turning it back and forth will get smoother with each try. Justaround is correct, drain that cooling system and fill it with water and pressure check before you add new oil to the crankcase. Pull that valve cover also and have someone watch the valve train while you are turning to make sure all push rods are moving the rocker arms and valves up and down. This will also give you a chance to check for bent push rods.

Just to mention we have all been through this same thing at one time or another, and YES we have a lot of wise crackers on this forum. Just try to lighten up a frustrating situation with a little humor.

Keep at it and let us know how things progress. When that KROIL arrives and you use it, you will be amazed it how it performs. MMO OK, but KROIL made me a believer.

Tim

On the other hand, it was running (if we are sure about that) when parked so it's probably alright. The milk is just 12 year condensation. I think we are getting a little paranoid about the milk. If you put motor oil and penetrating oil in the plug holes, leave plugs out when starter cranking, that will lube and clean and it will spin with a good battery and starter. You'll know pretty quick if pistons are too tight for starter. Tight spots could just be slight compression stroke resistance even with plugs out. Too bad no Kroil yet. May make a BIG difference after that soak.
I don't think gravity will force water thru a crack anyway. If block is cracked, it's cracked, at that point who cares? Check oil after 30 minutes of running the motor. The starter/flywheel has about a 18:1 gear ratio. Large mechanical advantage, more than a crow bar but limited force. Let'er rip, bare back. Use two 12V batteries if you have to or pull it slowly in 4th.
Brian, as a suggestion: If you can find anyone who can just pull real real slow , like slower than walking, you can get in it and after it starts rolling nice and slow, let clutch out easy so as to sense any bad noise and push clutch back in quickly. This is with plugs out and hood open and in 3rd or 4th on hard dirt.

My Kroil substitute (and I do have Kroil in the shop) is a 50/50 mix of atf and acetone. Acetone is available from most paint stores as well as WalMart.

I've seen a comparison test on the rust freeing properties of all the major fluids including Kroil, Rislone, MMO, WD-40, and all the rest.

The atf/acetone won. The comparison I recall used fasteners that were sprayed with a corrosive, allowed to rust tightly, then treated with the magic elixirs and loosened with a torque wrench. There was also a soak time element.

I tried to mix ATF and acetone and it was like oil and water. It would not mix. What am I missing?

Good question, I've mixed the two many times but never in a container (glass) that allowed me to see the blending action as in is this a solution or a suspension.

Found the thread on the mix and the test.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-200247.html

Back when the family dirt track car was running on an alcohol/hydrogen peroxide mixture Dad used to use Amyl Acetate (known as "bananna oil") as a wetting agent to reduce surface tension and make the two components mix better. I see it's available on Ebay, but it's pretty expensive.
Jerry

Well, I should have pulled the valve cover sooner as a step in this process. Typical me. Anyway, the back of the motor looks new, the front of the motor looks a blooming rose of rust. You can see pictures here :

http://twoheelers.tumblr.com/

I took my car detailing kit and hooked up the reducer for the vacuum to a shop vac. I sucked and scraped as much rust off with the little attachments as I could. Wire brushed, vacuumed again, blew it off with the air compressor, and sprayed everything with Kroil. I may pull the top off of the motor today. Hopefully, when I broke the motor free at the fly wheel, I didn't actually break something.

At first I thought that pretty much says the front two cylinders were full of water at some time and pumping water up into the valve train.
Second thought, why no rust or milk in rear valve train?

Evidence shows the truck was not run after water incursion..soooooo...

Wild A$$ Guess: Water got in to valve cover and sat there a long time. Truck was parked "down hill". Still don't think cracked block.
Possible condensation inside valve cover and truck sat "down hill" because front sank down in the mud.....or rear end was up on blocks.... or front tires were flat causing tilt....for 12 years.

Anyway, I guess now you know what cylinders are stuck and what cylinders those rusty plugs came from.

Hotrod Lincoln speaks highly of the little borescope cameras they sell on eBay or Amazon nowadays. For $40 or so you can buy one that hooks up to a laptop and/or smartphone and peek down the spark plug holes. Might be worth it before pulling the head.

The alleged history of the truck doesn't seem to support a catastrophic water- pushing event. I like bartamos' theory about condensation and tilt. Or maybe some other reason that condensation tended to concentrate on that side of engine.

Does your valve cover have a breather cap at the front? Maybe some water found its way in there at some point.

I was just about to scroll back through this post and see if I could find a link to that scope. I need to check the gas tanks for rust as well.

We were all scratching our head on this. Bartamos may have nailed it. It was backed over some telephone poles when parked. The differential settled on the posts, but the front was able to sag lower. The oil filler and vent tube are all towards the back. The only other thing I could come up with is the upper radiator hose blowing a leak. There are only 4 bolts on the valve cover, and none on the front, so it could have pushed water past the gasket. Problem with that theory, is it would have had to happen right as it was parked.

Anyway, it is what it is. If I can get it started, I will. If not, I will rebuild the motor. I think I will go order a scope right now though.

Thanks all, I will post updates as I have them

Would be pretty easy to go ahead and pull those front push rods and inspect for bending. Sticky/rusty valve train might have been your issue rather than cylinders. And if so the crow bar might have been hard on them. Pretty minor casualty in the grand scheme, if so.

Condensation can cause a lot of water in 12 years.

Given your comments about the tilt.....

Could actually be a liquid precip intrusion. Some kind of odd hood leak or someone left hood up at some point....into breather cap....gravity takes it to front.

Could be if gasket not sealing, put breather cap designed to keep out splash type water. It is very common to have condensation inside a valve cover, but most never notice because the heat of the motor, after warm up, evaporates it/boils it out. Many complaints about water/milky water on inside of valve covers on the interweb.

That was my fear the second I pulled the cover off. Pretty standard for my part, tried to rush and muscle it instead of going through all the proper steps.

Lesson learned for the next rig :-)

Pull the suspect cylinders' push rods and roll them on a flat surface like glass or such to check for straightness. Quick and easy to do and might save yourself some angst about breaking something that's harder to fix.

Keep track of what goes where.

The front inside portion of the valve cover on my 49 216 collects quite a bit of condensation during the colder winter months. It isn't unusual for that white milky telltale sign of condensation to cover the inside of the VC as well as the valve train of cyls 1 & 2. Real similar to what the rust has covered in your pic.
If that truck was run a lot during it's final winter, collected up quite a bit of milky white condensation then parked for years it "may" result in what we're seeing in your pic.

Oddly enough my 216 has no condensation build up in the warmer months.

You may want to pull the rocker shafts and clean them & the rockers up and give those front valves a couple taps with a BMH to make sure they're free and knock off any rust that may have trickled down to the valve and seats.

Patagonia's truck is a later one. When did PCV become standard equipment?

Dave, doing good, you are back to half way done.

I know it's more work, but I would also pull the push rod cover and check the lifters and lifter valley for rust. I would also pull the rocker arm assemblies and clean the internals real good, rocker arm tubes, and all the rocker arms, push rods, etc. With that much rust, I would also pull the oil pan and check for rust in the pan and on the crankshaft towards the front of the engine. Then thoroughly clean.

Tim

I knew I should have just bought the gasket kit :-)

I'd drop the pans as sugested to see what you have BEFORE spending any money on gaskets...

Mike B

Well, after pulling the pan and side off, I found more rust.

http://twoheelers.tumblr.com/

Not sure what it all means yet, but I am going to poke around some more tomorrow.

Well that motor is pretty well toast but the photos are interesting. Man I would love to have a shop like that! I could load it up with multiple projects in no time.

Bummer....

Bummer is right! The engine is pretty well gone. Looks like a complete rebuild is in store.....

Tim

I wouldn't give up on that engine quite yet. Looks like the front end is bad, but could probably be cleaned up. You would have to check the inside of the cylinders for rust and even if they were bad, they could be re sleeved. Worst case and easiest and cheapest may be to replace it. The head is valuable if it has no cracks. Rocker covers and side panels are easy to find.

Probably a matter of how much you want to spend and if you want to keep the original engine.

Start pulling the motor out. Start looking for a direct replacement 261. Keep all the outside parts. Don't bother taking it apart to examine internals.

Should have listened to Grandpa. Pull it with a loader until it frees up or comes apart. He would have saved you a lot of time.
Having said that, I would have gone the same route that you did.
We are talking about to different trains of thought here, a couple of generations apart.
Grandpa's generation did not have the romantic attachment to a basic farm implement which kept you dry when it rains, and didn't have the time to fool with such things.
Us, on the other hand, are just the right kind of fools to spend countless hours and all of our precious gold resurrecting these inefficient, uncomfortable, rough riding, obsolete, air polluting death traps.
We do this and scoff at everyone who looks at us as though we have 3 heads. That, my friends, encapsulates what it is to be a Stovebolter.
Carl

A a science project, and for "fun" and for mechanical practice, I am going to clean up what I can and try to spin the motor again. I took the covers to the parts washer, and also cleaned off the gears on the distributor. My hands are still tingly, but you can read "Chevrolet" on the valve cover again. Then I spent the day cleaning out the cute little compartment with the rods in it. My chest is killing me from laying on the valve cover and radiator cap all day. Most of the rust came from the cover panel I think. It is very clean in there now, I even sanded the back of the rods with strips of sandpaper. That is all soaking in Kroil now. During this week after work, I will work on cleaning up the bottom. Either it will start or it won't, and like I said, it will give me good valuable experience.

That is my Uncle's shop. Hhe let me do the lift kit on the Jeep in there. If I can talk him into letting ne clean out the bay that has turned into junk storage, I may drag the 59 down the hill. Especially if I have to re-build the motor.

Sorry, I meant to write about this earlier, but had not coffee yet. If this link works:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/75ba199aa4fe016f06b1b50d7bcd0a39/tumblr_omorcnd8di1tf758jo3_540.jpg

you can see a little waterfall of rust down the middle of the motor behind the rods. If the link doesn't work, it is in the large grouping on my last post.

Anyway, as I said in my "Welcome" post, I am not a mechanically experienced, so please bear with the ignorance. That waterfall either means head gasket, leaky panel gasket, or it is just where the water seeped down from the valves through the rod hole? Whatever the case, the reason for the post is, we drained the antifreeze, there was no oil in it, and it tested good, although I don't remember the exact temperature. The radiator was not full, but was holding somewhere between 1-2 gallons. Most of the rust down below seems to be below where the oil return holes are.

Don't worry about getting all the rust out, just clean up what you can and button it back up so you can fill the crankcase up with Diesel fuel- - - -like up to the level of the oil pan rail. Then spin the engine with the starter Or take a SLOOOOOOW lap around the farm towing with the loader with the transmission in high gear. The spinning crankshaft will splash the solvent into places you'll never be able to reach with a brush.

Even if you end up rebuilding the engine, which is likely, a lot of preliminary cleaning will already be done for you.
Jerry

That is a good idea. The diesel will not hurt any of the innards of the oil pump, will it? Any rough guess as to how many gallons that pan holds?

Diesel will not hurt anything. Just make sure you have the ignition disabled. You don't want it to start. Leave the spark plugs out while you pull it. Man your having too much fun!
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