The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop 350 Chevy, How far should I go?

The engine in my 58 viking has finally gone out on me. Since I'm pulling it for a overhaul, I thought I'd look at some new parts for the engine. Thoughtfully Jegs Performance sent me a catalog, and I'm surprised with how far one can take these engines. But how far is far enough?

I'm looking to get a general hauler out of a 2 ton viking. That means I'll want some power, but I am also a stickler for fuel economy. The engine is a mystery to me; all I can tell you is it is a mid-late seventies stock engine with a Quadrajet, implying a passenger car origin.

I plan to install a ranger torque splitter, so anyway to shorten the engine is a good thing. I found that I can get several components in electric, and I was wondering if any of you had experience with an electric water pump, either bolt on or remote assemblies. Also, apparently the radiators came in a v8 "rear mount" and a straight six "front mount", the mounting referring to which side of the core support the radiator is installed. Anyway to alter one to the other? how do I identify what I have?

Stay FAR away from hotrod modifications, particularly long duration, high lift cams that require higher compression pistons. For a working truck you want lots of low-end torque, not a ridiculous horsepower rating at some RPM range that would make a 2-cycle chainsaw jealous. Look into some of the recreational vehicle cams that various cam grinders offer- - - -I'm partial to Comp Cams from decades of building round track race engines with their cams. They also offer RV cams with matched components like rocker arms, valve springs, timing sets, etc. A moderate increase in compression ratio, no more than 9:1, will still allow you to run regular gasoline, as long as you do a pretty good cleanup of the combustion chambers to eliminate rough areas that will trap carbon deposits and possibly create hot spots and detonation. One thing that will help develop more torque in the range it will be useful to a working truck (not a stoplight tire smoker) is a set of 6" long connecting rods with the appropriate set of flat top pistons, ones with a reduced wrist pin to piston top dimension to keep the pistons from sticking out the top of the block. The longer rod translates to more "dwell time" with the piston near the top of the stroke where combustion pressures can act on the crankshaft without a lot of power loss due to rod angularity. That's an old round track racer's trick for better acceleration off the turns, even with a fairly radical cam. Lower compression and a mild cam helps the torque out even more with a long rod. Stay away from electric water pumps- - - -they're a drag racer's gimmick. Run a flex fan to eliminate the length a fan clutch takes up, and don't even consider an electric fan. It won't move enough air to cool a working engine in a real truck.

Run a clean, properly-rebuilt Quadrajet carb and a stock intake, with maybe a blocked-off EGR valve as the only modification. Most brand name aftermarket intake/carb combinations excel in only one area- - - -sucking money out of your pocket like a Dyson vacuum cleaner. Have fun!
Jerry

I kinda figured most cams were going to kill my truck, though I never thought of using longer connecting rods with new pistons. What is the air flow of a mechanical fan? Is a fan clutch a necessary addition, or can I get away with a straight connection? I found an electric capable of 2400 cfm, would it be enough? I am only pursuing this because I need to shorten everything on the engine. Bear in mind, I need to eliminate 4 inches of the front to get it to work. I would stay mechanical if I thought I could easily get away with it. I already removed the EGR, the engine blew by so much I stuck a hose in and ran it behind the cab to keep from smoking myself out. The intake is some off-the-shelf Edelbrock affair from autozone, the original didn't fit. would it make a difference?

Swap to a late model serpentine belt system up front. You'll eliminate a couple of inches that way, but be aware you'll need a reverse-rotation water pump and fan. All the front end accessories off a 3.8 L V6 will bolt right onto a 350, and there's a lot of them in salvage yards. Get everything off the front of the donor engine, pulleys, idlers, tensioner, etc. The reason for the flex fan is to eliminate the need for a fan clutch, and save a little more length in the process. It would be hard to run fast enough to GIVE me any sort of electric fan, regardless of how much CFM it's claimed to have. Is the Edelbrock manifold made for a Quadrajet? If not, trash it or sell it to some sucker who thinks it's worth something. Carb adapters kill power and generally mess up an otherwise good-running engine. There's NO better carburetor for a 350 than a good Quadrajet. I ran a 460 cubic inch Mopar 440 pull truck engine with a single Quadrajet for a Buick 455 on it, and made 714 HP on the dyno, running 100 octane aviation gasoline.
Jerry

That... is rather impressive. Be neat to fit that into my truck. I was mistaken, I thought you meant air filter, I do not know how I mixed those up. I suspect the serpentine might hurt me more, as I intend on equipping this truck with air con, and the kit uses a v-belt. Would the flex fan have enough flow for idling? I am recoring the copper radiator, but I'd hate to overheat with a heavy load. I noticed that there are "short" and "long" water pumps, the difference i think is shaft length. Do you know if these are a scam, or an okay swap? How much would HEI improve the truck, versus points and coil? Would an injector system help more than the quadrajet? Is there a way to drill the heads to take a DFI, or is indirect fuel injection the only choice?

You need to pick a direction to go, and stick with it. Right now you're more confused than a blind seagull in a fish market.

Use the whole serpentine accessory package for the V6, A/C compressor and all. No point in paying some aftermarket huckster for stuff you can fabricate yourself. HEI is an absolute necessity, and there's no better system than the original equipment GM HEI system with the vacuum advance. No computer is necessary. Port fuel injection will open up an entire new can of worms, requiring a computer, and a whole bunch of sensors. I try to use the KISS principle on projects, especially where a budget has to be considered. If you've got more money than brains, the sky is the limit.
Jerry

My problem is that I have been airdropped into the middle of a minefield, and I do not want to make a wrong step. Anywhere. How would I go about installing the modern air handler into an antique dashboard? I am okay with fabricating, but I do not want to spend several hours attempting to get it to "work." Would putting spark plug wires inside of stainless steel tubing cause any problems? And is the water pump issue a valid concern? Sorry if I am getting annoying with these questions, I just want to be sure of what I am doing.

What water pump issue? Use what GM engineered to work- - - -the whole system- - - -brackets, idlers, tensioner, belt, P/S pump (which can also be used to power a hydraulic brake booster instead of vacuum), A/C compressor, fan, and water pump. There is NO shorter system than a serpentine will give you, since it only runs one belt. Use an under-dash evaporator and fabricate lines to connect it to the GM radial compressor. It will cool well enough to turn that truck cab into a meat locker. Under-dash evaporator setups such as Vintage Air, etc. don't necessarily have to be used with their proprietary compressors. Think outside the box!
Jerry

Hey the box is there for a reason. I feel safe in it. . Jokes aside, I am happy with being creative, but I know a mismatched compressor/coil set will end up with unsatisfactory results, and more than likely, kill the compressor long before it is due. that and even with a deluxe control setup(which is seized) I cannot control the a/c without really jury rigging things up. I'd like to be cheap, but being cheap can cost me more than paying for a kit, and the a/c was something for a later time. The pumps are 2 different heights, one being 5 5/8, the other is 7 1/4. I am guessing there is a difference, but I do not know if it is enough to be concerned over. Also, the belts are not the problem right now, the water pump hub sticks out too far to be a concern.

OK, my 50+ years of doing automotive, household, commercial, and industrial refrigeration doesn't count. Do it your way.
Jerry

I'm sorry.

Sorry I just wanted clarification for what I am doing. Sorry that my observations and experiences differed from yours. Sorry that I don't want to spend several hundred dollars and hours rebuilding an engine just for it to blow up before it is broken in. Sorry that I didn't immediately take the words of someone I have never met on the internet for granted. Sorry that I don't have 50+ years of experience (despite me not even being 30 years old). SORRY THAT I WASN'T BORN WITH A COMPLETE AND TOTAL UNDERSTANDING OF CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS AND THEIR OPTIONS. SORRY I WASN'T STANDING AT THE ASSEMBLY LINE PUTTING THIS TRUCK TOGETHER (WHICH IS OLDER THAN MY DAD).

I knew it was a mistake asking you guys for help. I'm better off on my own. Sorry for wasting your OBVIOUSLY valuable time.

Goodbye.

Casey, you have to have a thick skin to hang around here. The guys here have hundreds of collective years working on these old trucks. They will not lead you a stray. In the garage forums most are serious motor heads. Some take it a bit too personal when questioned about their advise (I can be one of those) and get a bit testy with their replies. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Remember it is your project. Weigh all the advise and make your own decision what direction to take. If the thread gets out of hand as this one may have, just stop posting to the thread and go back to your project. When another question arises make a new thread in the appropriate forum and repeat the process. Hang in there buddy, it will be alright.

...(despite me not even being 30 years old)...

Casey58, that last post of yours will not gain you any favor. Are you sure you want to leave it here for others to see?

Yes, consider the advice an do what you think is right. It's your truck and your money and if it doesn't work out, you try again. It's learning.

Hope you stay around here and keep working on the truck. We must not forget that there are people who think that old cars and trucks should be scrapped. We need young enthusiasts like yourself to help fight them off.

Clarification is one thing- - - - -adamantly refusing to listen to the voice of experience when you're about to screw things up like a soup sandwich by being obstinate is quite another. It's your football and your football bat- - - -play by your rules if you choose! Good luck- - - -you're going to need it!
Jerry

being obstinate ... is definitely a 2 way street

Bill

I find it interesting that years ago, over just a few months, I became blind/deaf to Jerry's brand of obstinate. I could just move right through it and glean the valuable information and come out the other side without any scratches or poo on me.
Others seem to have more difficulty in that regard, and it is a shame, as he has a lot of information that you won't find everywhere.
I'm sure Francis will lighten up, spend some time reading more threads, and become familiar with the idiosyncrasies which make up Hotrod Lincoln. If not, he will learn things the hard way, and correct his mistakes, and eventually get it right by himself.
Carl

Thanks Carl- - - -I appreciate the kind words!
Jerry

Whatever...

Maybe that level of advice
comes with a price
even on a free forum?

"I knew it was a mistake asking you guys for help. I'm better off on my own. Sorry for wasting your OBVIOUSLY valuable time."

Casey,

I'd like to share an observation with you. Something I see over and over on this and other forums is somebody contemplating a project and asking others for "advice".

When you ask for advice you're probably going to get a bunch of opinions but no supporting data. If you have a scientific mind you will probably want to see the data behind the conclusions and recommendations ("opinions"). The way to get that is to research the subject(s) you're interested in. After doing that you'll actually have a lot of facts to form your own opinions on.

If you want to see what thoroughly documented recommendations look like, perfect examples are on the high performance section of the Chevy Talk forum. The moderator has the handle "Grumpy" and he doesn't just dispense advice. He also includes voluminous test data and back up information. I'd suggest checking that out. You'll see an example of what real automotive knowledge looks like.

Jerry - you have to understand you have no credibility. You need to publish a slick catalogue and then nothing you print is wrong!

Casey - if you are still reading this thread, a suggestion. Next time, on this or any other forum, define what you have done or planned to do in your first post. Starting with one set of criteria and then continually adding criteria gums up the works.

And Jerry really DID give you some excellent advice.

Good luck with your project; and do some math on how many miles you will have to drive that truck for the torque splitter to break even. It is the item that is making the rest of your build more complex.

Jon.

Thanks, Jon- - - -in situations like this I just pin a sprig of mistletoe to my shirt tail and go on about the business of helping people who are willing to listen.
Jerry

Best turn of a phrase I've read in a while there Jerry.

Don't worry about Jerry's feelings.

A shop teacher told me that the only time he gets upset is when students bleed all over the tools. He hates rusty tools!

Hmmmmm- - - - -so I'm not the only shop teacher who used that line! Interesting! I also used to tell students "I'm here to turn as many of you as possible into taxpayers. Your parents' taxes are paying my salary, and one day your taxes will pay for my retirement. If your taxes aren't paying me, my taxes will be paying your welfare!" Some parents (mostly the ones without jobs) got upset at that!
Jerry

I'm curious whether guys doing projects and asking for opinions want something like this:

Re: Headers on 1965 C10 small block [Re: Hot Rod John]
48bigtrucks Offline
Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 4496
Loc: Center Point, Iowa
Forget the headaches of headers, go with the rams horns. Headers gain you nothing in a stock set-up but noise, leaks and heat!

Or something like this:


USERNAME POST: BUILDING A 383, THINGS TO THINK ABOUT

this is the type of challange/upgrade I work on for the guys all the time, AND IM CERTAINLY NOT SUGGESTING YOU CAN,T REACH YOUR GOAL,THRU OTHER ROUTES, BUT THAT APPROCHING THE PROBLEM LOGICALLY ITS FAIRLY EASY TO PLAN YOUR GOALS AND COURSE TO ACHEIVE THEM,
the first thing youll need to get strait in your mind is the realistic budget youll be willing to work with and that performance is basically the result of the power to weight ratio and HOW effectively you can get the power to the ground. keep in mind that for a street car your NOT building the engine for max peak power, your looking to build for the best average power/tq curve over the rpm range youll use most

AND THAT HAVING SLIGHTLY MORE HP THAN THE MINIMUM REQUIRED IS SMART, simply because you won,t always have the ideal tune or traction available,its silly to shoot for minimum levels yet its a waste of money to over build the engine, to levels youll seldom use or even want, as theres always compromizes in driveability

ok first Id point out that its silly to build anything smaller than a 383 displacement simply because youll make significantly greater total power from a larger engine than a smaller one,COSTS for a 383 are just not that much higher than a 350, and its TOTAL POWER not horsepower per cubic inch your interested in!

next,CORRECTLY MATCHING the cylinder heads, cam and compression ratio , to the rpm range where youll get the best results is where youll make most of your power potential.

think it thru before buying parts, and only sellect those components that match your goal,by far the most comon mistake is randomly sellecting mis-matched parts because you "GOT A DEAL"

ok lets look at your options, to keep costs reasonable we want to use what we can from your current engine but its insane to limit yourself to parts that restrict your potential power levels severly like the current heads,intake and rear gear ratio.



the formula for hp is (tq x rpm/5252=hp
example
450 ft lbs of torque at 3000rpm=257hp
450 ft lbs of torque at 6000rpm=514hp
because the torque is available at that higher RPM RATE and at the higher rpm useing gearing the rotational force the engine supplied can be applied faster or slower to the rear tires

here read these ALL CAREFULLY
http://www.69mustang.com/hp_torque.htm

http://www.ubermensch.org/Cars/Technical/hp-tq/

http://vette.ohioracing.com/hp.html

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm
where most guys go wrong is in not correctly matching the cars stall speed and gearing to the cars tq curve, if you mod the engine for increased high rpm performance but fail to also match the stall speed and gearing to that higher rpm tq curve much of the potential improvement is wasted.

And your point is?

Three of the six links in the post above are dead???

Jon.

And, the pop-up windows and advertisements on the other three links are hanging up my computer.

"And your point is?"

Neither of those 2 examples is mine. I was trying to show that there some people who post a recommendation without stating any reason, research, dyno testing or other backup for their point of view.

The other is from "Grumpy" on the Chevytalk forum. When he makes a recommendation he attaches countless links to test data that led him to his conclusions and recommendations.

I'm really curious which of these approaches is considered more useful here.

As I recall, what started this thread is a guy asking "how far to go" with a 350 sbc that would be used in a truck application. If I were that guy I wouldn't want "Use an RV camshaft and stay away from long duration camshafts". The reason is "RV" and "Long duration" can mean different things to different people.

What I would want is specific data like "Pick a camshaft with duration @0.050" lift of some specific degrees and lobe separation of some specific degrees. Examples of such camshafts are these grinds from these companies". I would also really appreciate dyno test results that show the torque and HP produced by various camshafts at various RPMs so that I could see for myself how those camshafts would perform in my application.

I would also appreciate dyno data comparing various cylinder heads, intake manifolds, carburetors and exhaust manifolds/headers in the RPM range I would be operating in.

That is why I find Grumpy's posts fascinating. I know that the enthusiast magazines are constantly doing "Shoot out" articles that have this kind of information. I just wonder if others share my preference for the whole story of if they just prefer the "bottom line".

This is a "glorified-tractor-which-you-can-drive-in-the-rain-and-not-get-wet" forum, not a "Speed Shop" forum.
If someone needs high performance specs (which needs to have every moving part of the engine taken into consideration), this site is not where one should go for that much information.
If these posts start getting clogged up with long-winded pages of detailed specs which few can actually apply, I will just leave and go into the Greasy Spoon and make fun of DG and joker instead.
Carl

If the guy will be so kind as to provide a small encyclopedia's worth of specifics about his vehicle, such as gross weight, gear ratio (of all the transmission gears plus the rear end), tire sizes, part and/or casting numbers of every part he intends to use in the engine buildup, etc. I'll be glad to provide him with plenty of part numbers and specifications, and charge accordingly for the time and effort I have spent looking up all those parts. It's the way I made a living for 40-something years, building $15K race-winning engines, training hundreds of young men (and women) to make a living in the automotive trade, and coming up with innovative solutions for a lot of unique mechanical problems.

If you're so interested in having an encyclopedic source for information that you're too lazy or incompetent to look up on your own, especially on a free internet forum, why not spend a few decades getting qualified to provide those answers yourself? In the meantime, that mistletoe is still on my belt.
Jerry

"glorified-tractor-which-you-can-drive-in-the-rain-and-not-get-wet"

That hurts, Carl

In the rest of the forums yes, but this is the HiPo forum, so it seems fitting in here.

Does the NASCAR truck series even have a class for 60 year old antique resto-modded trucks?
Jerry

[quote=yar
I just wonder if others share my preference for the whole story of if they just prefer the "bottom line". [/quote]

There probably is no exact answer to this question.

If I were to enter a hospital wishing an operation, I would personally be much more interested in the skill of the surgeon than the criteria he/she used to determine the operation was necessary; OR how he/she was going to perform the operation.

And in the case of either Grumpy from Chevy talk OR our own HRL: if either told me that the sun was going to rise in the west tomorrow; I would first go purchase a compass, and then hire a television crew to record the event!

Bottom line: this forum, Chevy talk, and many others are free; existing because individuals such as Grumpy and HRL are willing to share their knowledge and experience. And it is my belief that one should say thank you when a response is given, rather than argue. The questioner is certainly free to ignore the response if he/she does not like it; and possibly open a different thread and rephrase the question.

Jon.

"This is a "glorified-tractor-which-you-can-drive-in-the-rain-and-not-get-wet" forum, not a "Speed Shop" forum.
If someone needs high performance specs (which needs to have every moving part of the engine taken into consideration), this site is not where one should go for that much information."

Carl,

I would define "high performance" a little differently than you may. To me it is doing the assigned task in the most effective way possible. In the case of a truck engine that would probably mean making a lot of torque at low RPM. For any given engine there is probably a group of parts that would work effectively together to accomplish that objective.

People who have built and tested a lot of truck engines have probably found the optimum combination. I think that is what the original poster was asking about. I will confess to you that I don't see why the original poster put his question on the wrong forum.

We are beating a dead horse here. The guy left and has not been back. He was too thin skinned to hang with all the Ba!! Busters on the site. Every so often someone gets insulted by the post of another and leaves. So be it! The show goes on. Lets let this die a dignified death.