The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 216 No Start

I have my 216 back on the frame of my 1950 3100, radiator mounted and braced .Just the cab and drive line is on the frame. Started it Saturday and the engine ran and idled like a champ! Monday started it again and shifted through all the gears, again it idled nicely and everything looked good for a short drive around the school the next day. Today I started it to check the generator and it ran for just a short time and it started running rough. Now I can't get it to start at all. I have checked the spark at the plug wires, and it is good. Checked the fuel pump and it is pumping fuel to the carb. I have checked the timing and it is correct. Cleaned the spark plugs. Checked the fuel stream in the carb and it looks strong. Everything seems to be correct but still no start.
I rebuilt the carburetor about 1 1/2 years ago (Rochester B). I have never driven this truck and was just a bit excited to get the chance today. My frustration level I think has reached a new high.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here and I'm not the first to be in this spot.
I just needed to vent a bit and the wife isn't as knowledgeable as the Stovebolt folks!

Jackie

For an engine to run, you need :
1) Spark at the right time.
2) air/fuel mixture. (You have fuel, but is there water in it, or crud buildup on the inside of the tank? 10% ethanol gas is a "wonderful" solvent for dissolving crud which then migrates down stream to clog the tiny holes in the block of aluminum which is your carburetor.)
3) Compression. (You say that you have never driven this truck. How long has the engine been sitting? The crud mentioned above, can also cause the valves to stick resulting in bent valves which will prevent compression.)
BTW, you need to save your "high level of frustration" for more significant problems, like starting a newly rebuilt engine, having neglected to torque down the connecting rods...
Carl

well if it ran good for 3 days that is good, so what it did yrs ago or previous may not mean much.. it was ok 3 days ago.. how old is the gas that you are using for fuel?? when you say it wont start do you mean it is turning over ok but no start.. you might check the coil wire also to see if it jiggle lose

I rebuilt this engine about a year ago. It has been on a stand till 2 months ago when I put it in the frame. I started it and let it run 15-30 minutes several times while it was on the stand.
The fuel is fresh and it is in a brand new Spectra fuel tank.
The suddenness is what has me baffled. It ran great and 12 hours later it will not even start. It does turn over but will not run. The starter got a tremendous workout today!!

Jackie

Always check the "Basics" means do not skip steps but take a breath then start to verify if you have ignition, fuel, or mechanical problem.

Be systematic and you will find out the problem and you will have your truck running again.
Jeffrey

Jackie,

For me, the first shakedown run is always mixed with excitement and nervousness. At least you got some run time.

Did you leave the ignition on for a period of time when it "suddenly" stopped running? I would check to see if you cooked the coil or points.

You will figure it out.

Paul

Coil test good.
Should the points have continuity when closed and open? When they are closed there is .01 ohms resistance when open there is 31 ohms resistance is that normal?

Jackie

There should be practically no continuity over the points when open, disconnect small wire from distributor to coil for this test. Realize that the condenser will still be connected across the points, may disconnect it as part of your troubleshooting and testing that the points operate as expected..

Do you have another coil to try? Another condenser?

It's sounding like spark or timing issue to me. Fuel and compression and valve timing are less likely to get out of order quickly, and more obvious, also easier to check and test.
How good is your battery, and are your cable connections good and clean? Does your coil still get close to full voltage while cranking?

WOW, great advice from all above! I will repeat some of it. You have not described any sounds/actions/speed of motor when trying to start. If you really do still have very good spark at plugs it would seem unnecessary to check electrical components. Retest spark.


If you still have good spark, squirt/dribble gas down carb then try start right away. Be sure choke is not stuck on. If it fires with that fresh gas...BIG clue.

When you detect some change somewhere when trying to start, something different happens , something strange intermittently....that will be your hint. Keep aware and observe. The abruptness does sound like a wire fell off/hanging by a thread/weak connection or electrical component failure... IF fuel down carb does not result.

When you say coil is good and this and that is good, we assume you know how to check these things properly and are not mistaken.

Need to know if no start means: absolutely NO cylinders firing OR trying to start with some fire? Any backfire at carb or tailpipe? Any air noise from carb? take of air cleaner to hear. Does motor sound like normal starting compression or faster than normal or fast/slow/fast/slow? Be sure to keep the battery charged up. Suggestions may change when you supply this info and if gas down carb had any result whatsoever.

No result? Recheck:
1. Coil
2. Points AND Condenser
3. Timing /plug wires vs Firing order on dizzy
4. Ballast or bypass system break down
5. Ignition switch failure or wiring
6. Grounding failure somewhere. Grounds will fail under load of starter just like power will.

I checked for spark with an inline spark tester not really sure what it should look like but it VERY thin and a VERY faint orange. I ohm tested the coil and found it within spec. primary is at 1.2 ohms and secondary is at 7.8k ohms.
There is battery voltage at the positive terminal of the coil.
The engine turns over and sounds normal.

Jackie

Bright blue is a good spark, faint orange is probably the problem.

Voltage at coil while cranking is the critical measurement because the draw of the starter and any poor connections will show up then and perhaps only then. If the coil does not get enough voltage you don't get a good spark.

To check for spark and how good without cranking the engine remove distributor cap, turn engine so points are closed, open points manually several times while checking for spark from coil high tension wire/terminal to ground.
If this checks out good yet a weak spark while cranking you can look for poor connections or low battery.

If you have another good battery you can use it solely for providing 12V to the coil. Just another way to troubleshoot and track down ignition problems.

Grigg

Voltage at the coil when cranking is in the 5.3-5.6 volt range.

Jackie

Best to now check the spark across plug gap for bright, strong, lightning white, blue .....and answer questions in quote box.

Clean and adjust the points.

The spark across the plug gap looks white but I wouldn't call it strong. All cylinders appear to be firing. It did spit and sputter a bit once today really nothing close to running.
I cleaned the points and checked the gap it is at .016 with very slight drag on the feeler gauge.

Jackie

Try another condenser?

Jackie, I see what you mean by "Firing". You are talking about spark plugs firing/sparking.

Firing usually means when all is hooked up and you are ready to start the motor running, you hit the starter and motor begins to "fire", to kind of start running but not. Firing is the fuel igniting/combusting inside but motor not really catching/firing enough times to start running on it's own. But still firing sometimes. You hear the exhaust noise and such.

Not firing is starter turns motor but there is NO noise except the starter and a gasp or two from the carburetor.

So what is it doing in that regard?
Did you spray gas or dribble a thimble full of gas into carb and try yet? You MUST do that ASAP. If you don't know how to do that, find someone who does. If it has spark it will ignite.
If it was running and then won't run, it could be OUT OF GAS!!! Check the tank. Do the spray into carb test.

Martin has you on the right track IF the spray test does not produce a few seconds of steady "firing".

We know that if you squirt gas down in carb and it won't even fire, it probably means no plugs have a strong enough spark. That excludes a fuel delivery problem and means that components that deliver to ALL plugs is suspect. Like points and condenser and coil and rotor and distributor cap and ignition switch and ballast/bypass system and wires. If you say timing is correct and firing order on distributor is double checked. (Clockwise rotation)

When the throttle is operated there is a good stream of fuel that sprays into the carburetor.

I just ordered a coil, points and condenser all BWD from Oreillys.

Thanks for all the reply's!
Stovebolters are awesome!

I should get the parts tomorrow evening and be able to update Friday.

THANKS,
Jackie

Sounds like a good plan.

replace them one at a time so if the new parts fix
the problem we will know what the problem was...

Joker;

That is great advice! I'll have to remember that. My usual approach is to throw all the new parts at the problem and hope for the best.

Check the ground strap . When I put my new rebuilt in my 54 it would start good when cold. Once warm would crank and no start unless pushed down the road and jumped. Turned out to be the thick ground strap from the moter to the frame . Nice shinny motor and frame freshly painted prevented proper ground.

Okay I changed the coil and the engine started and idled kind of on the rough side. When applying throttle it would not increase without a lot of finesse. I changed the condenser and now it purrs like a kitten at idle and revs up like a 92hp hot rod!

Jackie

I had a problem like that yrs ago..did not replace the condenser thinking that little booger really was not important. well, we know it is. glad you got it fixed..
I meant to mentioned that along with the coil but you were being bombarded I too forgot............sorry

so sweet it is and folks want a 350, give me a break

Great call, joker! I'm talking about you recommending changing one component at a time until you find out exactly what was bad so we all can learn from this thread.

thanks, I even change spark plugs one at a time so I dont
have to remember firing order, isnt that crazy?
well, I mean I use to.. I dont change anything on cars now,
just small engine plugs and such..

Like they say, "keep it simple stupid." And as a frequent sufferer of stupid, I change my plugs the same way joker.