The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline starter "grinding"

Have a 53 1/2 ton. 12 volt conversion.235 engine. 216 transmission, flywheel and starter. My engine makes a grinding sound when attempting to start. Does not turnover. Recently replaced the starter with a rebuilt one and first attempt to start today.. prior, it would start but at times "grind" and make a slamming noise when cranking the engine so replaced the starter.. any thoughts? Thanks,
Scott

is this the same issue you had back in April

I remember that post. Just read it again. Scott you never did make sure that you have the proper starter and flywheel combo.
You better read this from Member Deve's website. It will give you some insight as to noises and problems about flywheel mismatch re 216 and 235. Excellent info.
http://devestechnet.com/Home/Flywheel

u r good

Yes, same issue. I haven't had time to mess with the truck in a long time.
I ended up ordering a new starterfrom
Chevys of the 40s. It took awhile and when I called them, they had misplaced my starter so had to send another. When it came it was missing the starter switch so waited for that. installed starter by got busy with life again and just started working on it again yesterday. Friend and I removed starter and noticed the stater gear has 9 teeth instead of 6 as Deves Tech points out. So I believe, Chevy's of 40 sent the wrong gear drive on the starter motor. Will call them tomorrow and hopefully be able to exchange for correct one.
Thanks for input.

I guess I forgot to include the link to Deve's site.


Take this as a way to start over the right way:
9 teeth are correct for a 6 volt or 12V starter BUT they are different size/pitch.
If you are positive your 235 has a 139 tooth ring gear; You use a 6V starter with 9 teeth to drive a 139 Tooth 216 or 235 ring gear on 12V.
Sometimes you can't tell if you have a 6V or 12V starter.
You can tell whether an early Chevrolet or GMC starter is 6 volt or 139 ring gear teeth because the starter drive pulls out straight. The armature has straight splines. The 12 volt or 168 tooth ring gear starters have helical splines on the armature and will twist when pulled out.
Also the "exposed end of the starter shaft on the
12V starter will be .470" while the 6V starter has a shaft diameter of closer to 5/8".
Most of this info came directly from past posts here on Stovebolt. It is possible if your 235 is a 55.2 series motor it could have 168T as Cletis warned you in the past.

Now I am really confused... The flywheel is from my original 216 engine which I pulled out for the 235 per Patricks' I sent the original from the 216 to Chevys of 40s to be rebuilt. According to Deves Tech, "both ( 6 and 12 volt starters ) have 6 teeth but the pitch is different".. so you are saying that the starter drive gear should have 9 teeth? I do not have a solenoid on the starter that was sent to me. Scott

Yes 9 teeth. Deve will have to respond on his interpretation or typo. That's mine.

Please explain what "missing starter switch" means.

Please check starter splines for straight or spiral and check shaft tip size.
Thanks for keeping into this post. I want to see the end.

P.S. you and your profession are greatly appreciated.

Starting to make sense... on a whim I called Deve at Deve's Tech to clear up the "6" teeth part on his web site. Deve was kind enough to talk and in fact it was a mistake and should of been 9 teeth as everyone else has said.. best I can tell, Chevy's of the 40's probably sent me a 12 volt starter as they both have 9 teeth but a different pitch. I will give them a call in the morning and hopefully can exchange for correct starter. Pardon me for using incorrect nomenclature but what I meant as "starter switch" is the piece that screws on top of the starter housing and connects to the battery and foot starter linkage. Will let you know how things progress.. by the way, Deve will correct the typo.. Scott

So you are not installing a solenoid. You are installing a foot start starter. The mention of a solenoid was in reference to a 12V starter you have laying around? I see what you mean about starter switch, that's correct nomenclature. I was thinking you were installing/had a solenoid and you never corrected me. The slamming fooled me also. Your foot is doing the slamming, right? If there is something wrong with the foot stomp linkage it may not be "timed" correctly regarding gear slide vs switch activation. Keep that in mind.

How do you know the vendor sent you the wrong starter? Did you finally check the tell tales as I said? or what? You said "probably sent" a 12V????

No solenoid. Not sure where that came from.. not installing a foot starter as already have one... anyway, best I can see the shaft has diameter close to 5/8 and straight splines.. then why wont it engage? The original 6 volt starter worked fine after the 12 volt conversion and rebuilt 235 engine - with the 216 bell housing and flywheel. I will call Chevy's in the morning and go from there. Thanks,Scott
BTW, I do have a 12 volt starter with a solenoid in the garage that came with the rebuilt 235 as it was intended for a Bel Air- that is for sale.

You have the correct 6V starter. The problem, if you still have a problem, is probably the linkage. Starter motor rotating too early or late vs when the pinion is engaged. Put it in and see. Check all the linkage for slop, bent, missing pivot pins, missing spring.....

Just a thought... been checking things and noticed that I do not have a spring that connects the linkage to the arm on the starter housing arm which depresses the started button on top of the starter switch.. could that be the problem by not depressing the switch far enough to make the drive gear engage the flywheel? Thanks, Scott

There is a return spring to pull lever back off switch when you let foot off. If that spring is missing you may have found one of your troubles.
http://www.classicparts.com/1947-59...ylinder/productinfo/89-811/#.V_sdU-nrs5s

You should have this:
1954, Fig. 35 and first paragraph on next page:
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1954truck/54ctsm1221.html

With battery neg disconnected and spring installed, Observe the actuation several times from under the hood to spot any loose parts or wasted motion with nothing happening. Wiggle and jiggle things roughly. Move it all by hand while under there, make the gear slide and make lever push on button, etc. If it all looks good, your correct rebuilt starter and new spring, the only thing that could cause trouble now is bad teeth on flywheel.

I looked at the manual last night and saw that picture and notice the spring and couldn't recall seeing on my starter... I do have a picture of the starter prior to removing it and noticed the spring was missing.. ( can't seem to recall how to post a picture on this forum or I would }.. Anyway, without the spring in place am I correct to think that when depressing the starter pedal it does not return when my foot is off and thus grinds the flywheel? I am unable to check today but tomorrow after work I will put the starter back on with the spring in place and check operation... one thought, to check the starter itself, once it is installed couldn't I depress the starter button on top of the switch and engage the starter thus bypassing the linkage to see if the starter is the correct one? Scott

I'll just say that the missing spring could be your problem. You will soon know. When I was working on my 59 it had a foot start. I needed to fiddle with the carb and timing. So I operated the lever so that it would start the truck. I had my front clip off so it was easy to get to with a wooden stick levered against the firewall. I had the key on, in neutral and Ebrake on.
You can operate the lever by hand if you want, at your own risk. I believe you realize that just pushing the button will not slide the pinion, it will run the starter and not prove anything. The lever slides the pinion into the ring gear and then the same lever depresses the button. I pretty much said all that in the previous post. I recommended testing with battery disconnected to observe operation because I don't know how savvy or careful you are. That is not an actual full test. It will test the spring return and it will show any slop in the linkage. Be careful. I think you will have success. Let us know.

P.S. You say spring was missing, you say will try tomorrow with spring in place....so you found the spring? Where was spring when you took the picture showing it was missing?

Really have no idea what happened to the spring but this morning I looked through my parts table and found what all to be the correct spring so will attach tomorrow and see if that solves the problem

Roger

Up date... reinstalled the starter and added the return spring from the linkage to the arm on the starter housing.. connected the battery and turned over and got it to a rough idle ! Let it run for about 5 minutes. Sure do not know how the spring came off originally but I suspect there was nothing wrong with the old starter to begin with.. it seemed that this problem began suddenly - like when the spring fell off ? Anyway much thanks to all the Stovebolt folks who stuck with me and gave such sage advice..Great web site for guys like me who are "learning as I go"!

Wish I would have thought of that in the beginning. Seems so obvious now. Next time someone has that I will suggest it first. That will insure that it will never happen to anyone again and I will continue to be wrong. Glad you got it running.

Appreciate all your help.. I just happen to have a photo of the starter prior to taking it off and after looking at the manual I notice the spring was missing.. so simple! Valuable learning experience. Instead of assuming it was the starter I should of looked at everything first. Thanks.

Seven months of head scratching over a spring which jumped off the truck one day without even saying goodby. Ain't working on these trucks just a hoot?
Three years ago a guy called me with similar problems as yours (without the sending away for a replacement starter deal). I went to look at it and immediately noticed that he was missing the spring. New spring instantly fixed the starter.
Imaginary internet mechanic friends do have their limitations.
Carl

..and they lived happily ever after. The end.

I had gotton so frustrated that I didn't want to work on the truck. Kept imaging the worst like I had to pull the transmissiion and repair the flywheel and all it turned out to be was a spring....

..and Carl knew it all along. I thought the idea was to help people, not keep secrets. I will watch him from here on in.

Sometimes it happens like that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail

Glad to hear you got it sorted out.

So true!

Just so everyone knows what is going on when the return spring is missing. It causes the starter gear to start turning at a high speed before the mechanical lever has a chance to push the gear toward the flywheel.