The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 69 C10 Starter or Solenoid Problem?

Bill......Thanks for the link to the Ford Starter Trick (and to Bart for suggesting it). That is a great idea for sure.....just mounting the Ford starter solenoid unit up on the firewall or near the battery someplace. This might be the next little trick I try.

I just can't believe that some of the sharpest minds in the automotive realm haven't cracked this case. We've been fighting this since January.

Dwight, starters that come from the large rebuilders are not built back using the same internals they came in with. They are stripped down to bare cases and the internals are thrown into bins to be cleaned and refurbished. Then they are placed back in bins to be drawn from during the rebuilding process. I doubt any part is original to the case. I've seen the brush holders broken by the time the starter reaches the retailers shelf. It was not uncommon to find one dragging so bad after a rebuild that it did exactly what you describe. Car would start just fine when cold but after the starter got some heat in it the drag was so bad the starter would not turn at all.

Shurly there is an old time starter/alternator shop close by! Drive the truck there and let them check it while it's hot. The few bucks spent might just save you on aspirin expenses. You have been super on keeping us updated as have all the helpers offering suggestions.

no the wrap did not help,, the new battery did
but I was told to buy a high speed starter and pretty much
the same advice given to you, no one mentioned replacing the battery way back when.. I wish you the best..

When getting a jump start, current is still going thru the same cable and cable ends. We must be sure they are good; and the extra battery is also trying to rotate the same HEAT SOAKED solenoid or starter windings if that's the case. So a jump start may still exhibit the same symptoms.
I've always mounted the ford relay on passenger inner fender, up high even with alternator. 3/8 copper pipe flattened out, makes a great jumper in that trick. As you can see the advantage is just one big cable going down into the hot hole.
If wrapping and/or shielding does not fix it, it's time to go someplace that has real good diagnostic equipment...and that's not O'Reillys.
You keep asking about why a new starter would start cold and then not start when hot. Because there could be something wrong with it's electrical quality/rebuild quality such that heat causes loss of it's "power". That's what a bad new starter may do. As Shakespeare said "beware of a reman starter". IF everything is new, we are down to blaming new parts, thermal radiation, insufficient ground or several things at once.
Every possible cause has been mentioned, so what that means is: it's up to you to test, eliminate, isolate, fabricate, investigate and retest and reinvestigate using good equipment. You are missing something/taking something for granted/false test results. Good luck and let us know what it was.

Justhorsenround.......Well, this is a truly bizarre case in my opinion. I have gotten alot of great suggestions, but so far the case is not cracked yet.

I agree with you that a refurbished starter could have issues. But the wierd thing is that the old starter was giving the exact same symptons as the new starter.

Since engine heat seems to be the cause of the problem, I just need to do more testing and try other things, like mounting a Ford solenoid far from the starter. Another idea is to run a longer heavy gauge copper wire totally away from the headers.....route it along the wheel well and down and then up to the starter. If this works, then maybe its just way too much heat too close to the battery cable running to the starter.

Old time Alternator shop....I think those have been disappearing and moving to China. All we can do locally is to lay it on the counter of an Advance Auto and ask them to test it. (By the way, the old battery that I took out a few months ago.....they tested it and said it was fine. I bought a new one anyway).

Or could it be those UFOs that have been hovering over my house the past year?

Another thought: Anyone wanna buy a fine 69 Chevy C10?

Joker (not the JokerTut in Washington...ha ha), Ok, the new battery did the trick for you, not the wrap.

Wanna swap trucks? ha ha

Bartamos......Thats a Big 10-4. All the answers have been given, and its just a matter of more testing and time to come up with the problem, and to solve it.

One thing which was never explained much was my question as to what internal engine wear could present this same problem. Would it most likely be crank bearings getting hot, valves worn and getting hot, or what? The engine runs on the cool side, with great oil pressure, no smoking, and great get-up and go.

Will post back when problem is located and solved.

The bearing and piston clearances on a cold engine are way looser than on one that's warmed up, particularly pistons. A cam ground piston only contacts the cylinder wall with a very narrow strip at the center of the piston skirt when the engine is cold, and the egg-shaped piston skirt gets round and much closer to the cylinder wall as the engine reaches operating temperature. That increases drag considerably, and puts more stress on the starter. Most other clearances like all the bearings, the valve guides, lifters, etc. also run with reduced clearances once everything gets hot. That's why we build brand new race engines with more clearance to everything than a 100,000 mile street engine. We don't care how long it lasts or if it burns a little oil, as long as it finishes the race. We just don't want it to tighten up and rob any horsepower as it gets hot. A geriatric race engine that's ready for a freshen-up with new rings and bearings might have 1,000 miles on it, but it spins VERY freely!

BTW, that's also why people who do race engine stuff on a street machine are stuck on stupid!
Jerry

Talk to your local farmers, they know where that 85 year old man with the small shop inside his barn lives. He will have all the old time testing equipment. These old farmers will not go to the parts store for starter/generator work on their old tractors. Worth a try.

Jerry Hot Rod Lincoln....Thats alot of great technical info. there. Makes me think of something more simplier.....that exhaust valves are set with a couple thousandths more gap than the intake because they get hotter and will close up more as the engine gets hot.

I still cant get over the idea that the hydraulic valves are not working properly on my 69 C10, and they are running too tight when the engine gets warm, and then are so tight as to make the compression way too high and almost impossible for the cylinders to crank over when warm. Is there any way that this scenario could happen?

Yep, and after I am given directions to the shop in the old leaning 100 year old barn, and push my way through the weeds and thorns, I will know this is the right guy if there is a huge wood-framed 200 foot tall antenna with a large copper ball on the top, and electrical arcs discharging all around it. Then, I push open the leaning barn doors and see Tesla coils of all sizes sitting all over the place, and light bulbs glowing without electric wires running to them. Yep, that be the place for sure......this guy can fix anything, even those DeLorean flux capacitors.

That's the guy. Go find him! If you were here I could take you straight to the guy in about 15 minutes. Fortunately for us he is passing on his skills to his grandson. Works out of a 10x20 room on the side of his barn. When you walk in the shop there are shelves full of starter, generator and alternator parts. He can change a 6 volt anything to 12 volts. He can disassemble clean and refurbish your starter in about an hour and that includes testing it.

speaking of possible internal engine problem that might cause this, do you think the johnson rod could be worn out?

Joker......Well, I have replaced the Johnson Rod at least 5 times. The last time, that old mechanic in the barn sold me a special one with two Tesla coils hooked up to it, and so far it has not failed me yet.

Gotta love those onry and hard to access Johnson Rods. Im thinking that the Henry Ford solenoid will allow me to bypass the Johnson Rod.https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/default/lightbulb.gif

Isn't the E. Normus model the best Johnson to have? Those are the rumors I've heard!
Jerry

Thats a Big 10-4 from my backdoor......E. Normus models the best, if you can still find them since the dern EPA outlawed them saying they were causing global hotting.

*********************Final Update........"No Start When Hot" issue solved":

A bad voltage regulator was charging the battery at 18 volts. After turning the key off, the battery's amperage was extremely poor due to overheating and perhaps plate warpage? Thus, when trying to restart after the truck had been driven on a 15 minute trip, the battery was boiling hot and lacked the amperage to turn over the starter. After cooling down, the battery's amperage must have gone back to near normal levels as the voltage dropped from over 18 down to 12.5.

Not sure if anyone had suggested testing/replacing the Voltage Regulator....but if someone did, they deserve a six pack of Koronna Extra (not the virus version, but the barley/hopps version).

[img]https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/18307/filename/STA77192.JPG[/img]

Congrats. I don't know if I would have messed around for 4 years on this issue though!!

Rusty Rod........Thanks........and I hear you, it took me darn sure long enuff to figger it out, and a ton of unnecessary parts in between. DOHHHHHH!