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Confessions of a body shop owner.

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I'm sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don't beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior collage and take a course or too in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can't learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe's Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn't see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don't believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don't doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vice on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it's a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn't have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.

2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be darn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn't have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn't take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?

So let's say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can't get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don't allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn't follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don't give him a deposit and leave the car. This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don't trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don't want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let's say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn't done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don't have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little '58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30's and 40's vintage ***** ) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn't pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can't wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don't get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

Outstanding post Martinsr. We need more like it.
As always....let the buyer beware.

I was once the assistant manager at a dealership shop. I got fired. The manager said that I didn't have the skills required for the job. When I asked what he meant by that, he said "You don't know how to keep the customers happy". Still confused I pressed him for more.

I almost fell over at his reply. "You have to learn to tell people what they want to hear, so they won't keep coming around and bothering us."

What!! Then the kicker..."Most of these people don't know what's going on anyway, so baffle them with BS and they always drive away happy"!

The owner of the dealership was none too pleased, but the idiot is still there (this was five years ago) and according to my insiders, he's still up to his fun and games.

It's a shame really. But I learned an important lesson. Now I know what to watch out for.

Thanks for the view ...

I can relate --- "now". I took the Canary in for painting ... the fellow said "there's a few dints and dings do you want me to take them out "before" I paint ...
sure says I, may as well. Estimate - $4200 for a paint job ... gimme a break ... then he pointed out that one cab corner would need replacement - uh well yes - ok.... the roof has a hellof a dint in it ... hmmm never noticed that ...
OK what the hell I want a nice truck when I'm done... 8 months later (count 'em eight months!) with me going in every two weeks or so ... the final bill ... $9600 ... and I still had to reassemble ... (I wasn't as clued in then as I am now) ... for 9600 I could have bought a finished truck for the love of Pete ...

gaurantee ... oh sure ... find me ...

buyer beware says I ... buyer beware

unfortunately for me but fortunately for others he went belly up a few months later ...
Now, the Toad is all me and mine ... what I didn't know how to do I either went to school or learned over the Stovebolt Page ... Anyone remember OLY teaching me how to rebuilt my small block? I've done another one since and it's still running a year later every day. The Stove Page has been and is a warehouse of information, for me at least ...

I work at a large collision repair shop. We have 6 locations, and we are growing to the 8-10 range. Alot, if not all of your statements are true. When the collision work would slow down, we would take in small custom jobs to fill the voids and to keep our guys busy. Profits on a "resto" job weather it is small or large, are at a very small margin. This was many years ago because now the area is extremely over populated and hence we now have waiting lists to have collision repair work started in any of our shops. There are some small shops in our area that do "resto" work but they all have the "tell tale" signs of the great bodyman with a heart of gold but he also has no idea of how is business should be ran and what his costs are. Everyone who has a great experience with a "resto" shop should let everyone know, also if you have a experience that is poor also spread the word, which will help others in the long run. I enjoyed reading your comments.

Phillip Pierce
1951 GMC Canadian 9300 Half Ton
Centreville Va

Great post on a problem that faces any one who wants to restore a vehicle. This brings to mind a story of a fellow worker who owned a 1967 mustang for years and New England winters got the best of it so he wanted to bring it back to its former glory.

The search for someone to do the body work was a challenge for him the shops he checked refused to do the work all they (business men) wanted was collison repair work. Someone introduced him to a guy(dreamer) who seemed willing to take on the project and he proceded in earnest replacing the floors and rocker panels then he moved on to another project and the car sat.

Sadly the car owner did not visit the shop often enough and one day he arrived to find the place empty and checking with the police found the owner was in jail and claimed no knowledge of the car. The local police offered little help in finding the car he has chalked it up to lesson learned.

His story help me to decided to do my own work on my project truck and I am still learning the basics. With help from Len Stuart's BBS and with people like Martinsr who donate their knowledge I am getting there.

Here is my site.

www.1955gmc.com

Dave Cunningham

Martinsr = Martin senour?
any connection?
unbroke

Mr Broke, may I call you Un? Yes I was a Martin Senour rep for five years and my last name is Martin so I figured it was a go.

MARTINSR,
Cmayna in Menlo Park here. I don't have a bunch of money to do a restore but feel my 50 5 window deserves something better (paint job) than it has right now. Can you recommend a reasonable shop on the mid peninsula ? I'd like to spend $2-3k.

Here's a couple links. The front view looks better in the pic than in real life. The bed shot show the worst conditioned part which is typical if you haul stuff around.

bed truck

Cmayna, I'm sorry I didn't do any work to speak in the peninsula. The closest place I can recommend is HotRodz in Petaluma. Give Mike or Will a call up there and see what they can do for you. Tell them their old Martin Senour rep Brian told you to give them a call.

MartinSR, you are a credit to the human race

Martinsnr I have learnt much from you even though I live on the otherside of the pond. I fowarded your email contact some time ago to a guy on another BB re your mate with the built 500 caddy, am wondering if anything come of it? Thanks again for the lessons.

Thanks Guys, Luke, I hope to God that is tongue in cheek The body and paint stuff should be much lower on ladder of life than that! The people who help sick babies and such are the ones who should be getting such accolades.

Pete, I don't remember any comunication from anyone on that motor. But then again, I forget a lot. :rolleyes: