The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop grill question

In getting ready to clean up the grill on the 48 2 ton for painting. Maybe someone can tell me why, even though the entire grill is riveted together, they fastened the bottom outside corner of each bar with a sheet metal screw????? I don't see any reason for it.
The top bar is the only one that comes off with screws.

The real question is, "Why did they make such a basic part so complicated?"

To give it personality of course. Ya think that's maybe why
they changed the AD grill in '54, that is, less pieces?
I think it was an evolutionary thing. Look at all the bars
that the Art Deco had, less on the AD and less on the '54-'55
till they finally got rid of them all in the TF with it's
stamped grill.
I'm surprised that there is any grills at all in the trucks of
today. They've almost completely eliminated the grills in
most cars, that's why they don't have any.....personality
any more and the reason you can't tell one from the other.

dg

The 47-53 grill is the best looking truck grill of all time.
I just figured that the same look could have achieved with a simpler design.
But them, since the labor-intensive assembly was done by dirt-cheap labor, It didn't matter much back then.
Carl

Rivets were probably more abundant and much cheaper than screws! I still wondering why there are so many rivets were used in the frame of my '49 3100 1/2 ton and not bolts, or even better....welded. Even the under bed spare tire carrier is riveted to the frame!
Tim

A riveted joint is much stronger than a bolted joint using the same diameter bolts.
The reason is that the rivet shaft expands over it's entire length when it is headed. It completely fills the holes in the joint eliminating any possibility of movement. Bolts have clearance in all the holes.
This does not hold true for hollow or hollow ended rivets that just roll the edges over to fasten.

Jim,

I understand your explanation, but if that is the case with rivets then why do I have so many rivets that have come loose in the frame and had to have it welded or bolted back together?

Tim

I've done a lot of farm and industrial equipment over the years and that has never been my experience.
The 48 2 ton was a farm truck and spent much of it's life off road. Because of the twisting and bumping around, there were stress cracks in many of the sheet metal parts, cab floor (very bad) and almost every front clip part except the hood.
There was not one loose rivet in that frame.

I'm with you Jim, don't remember the last time I saw a loose
rivet in a Stovebolt frame. Fact is, I just helped a buddy
pop some out of his frame last week and I had to drill out the
center to get them to let loose for fear of bending he frame
by pounding.
Welding was questioned also. Frame alloy and design wasn't
compatible with the welding techniques at time. Different
alloy's, welding processes and frame design became the norm
in later years just as it eventually did in high-rise building
construction.
DG

If your frame has loose rivets it was rode hard. I had a situation where someone used bolts for the front crossmember and I wanted rivets to give it more strength.

http://devestechnet.com/Figures/framerivets.pdf

Like Jim says, the rivets are stronger and done right, you can't tell the difference between the rivets Chevy did and your own. The procedure is different because Chevy set them colder using pneumatic pressure. Red Hot is better IMO and the only way to do it since we don't have those big hanging rivet machines.

Jim....I am very sorry....guess this got a little off subject and I should have started a new post! I have counted about 8 rivets on the frame that were wiggling and loose. Two of these were in the very from of the front motor mount support just below the radiator, two near the front cab mounts and a few scattered in the back of the frame. all of my suspension rivets are tight as well as the frame cross supports. I am wondering if the rivets that were loose came from the factory that way. They didn't appear to be distorted or stretched. The welder told me he saw no signs of damage or distortion to the rivets either, just appeared that they were not secured completely when installed?

Tim

I suppose that is more believable than they worked loose.
They were installed with a big hydraulic header. All production equipment needs repair and adjustment from time to time.
Doesn't say much for the in process inspection.
Another possibility was out of spec rivets. If the diameter was under size they wouldn't have tightened correctly. Another inspection problems.

I decided the grill has to be blasted before paint. The front is pretty good and a days worth of hand work would have had it ready for paint, but there was the rust on the back. Never got very much paint from the start.
So many sharp sheet metal edges and corners means a lot of bleeding if it was cleaned any other way.

There's always the "Stripper", she does a great job with old paint and rust:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/117081271
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/117081395

dg

After complete disassembly I am in the process of paint stripping and derusting. I am curious of the brand stripper you used Denny. They came out amazingly rust free!

I am following Stovebolt Tech Tip for this grill. I found that instead of grinding off the rivet heads it was easier to grind off the small rolled side with a small die grinder. Much quicker process.

Not knowing how much rust was on the back to start with, that is remarkably rust free. I would also like to know the brand you used.

This was even quicker Drew and only took a few short minutes
after the drill bushing was attached to the Vice-grip and
heat treated.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/137991432
The single upper bar which is separate from the main grill,
I stripped it with Mar-Hyde Tal-Strip Aircraft Stripper
then wire brushed.
The main grill went to a paint stripper in Union Grove, WI.
along with the rest of the front clip, where they were
dipped in a caustic solution. I'm not sure if they are in
business anymore, the phone number is no good now. Maybe
someone from the Milwaukee area knows if they are still
there outside the Great Lakes Drag Strip entrance??

dg

One of my first posts after a long period of just listening to everyone else was about Denny's procedure on RIVETING the grill back after removing them for restoration. There is a lot of talent on Grills to be had there.

My biggest problem is I took all of my grills apart with a nephew helping me and when I finally looked at what he was doing, 4 of my big truck grilles parts were mixed in with my small truck ones. When I get to this step I get to figure out what went with what! Maybe by then, my dream will come true.. A STAINLESS STEEL grill.

Were the deluxe actually SS? Unlike the garnish I though the
grills were just chrome plated.

dg

I think they are just Chrome Denny. I sure wish they would make them in SS. Maybe by the time I am ready for the grill stage, someone will make a decent repop.

All "bright" A-D grills were chrome.

That's what I thought, from your reply I thought you were expecting to find a SS grill. Guess it was....only a daydream.

dg

With the change in cost of stainless, I can see a time where stainless is used to stamp out our grills. I sure hope I am right. Stainless should be the main metal used for anything. Chrome has a shelf life. Stainless is forever and nowadays at a very similar cost.

All the "chrome" on both my 47 Ford and Mercury was stainless. A friend spent a considerable amount of time dent-bumping, metal finishing, and re-polishing all the fender and door trim strips when we did a cosmetic restoration on the Mercury.
Jerry

There is more chromium in a stainless steel grill (10.5% BY weight, minimum), than in a chromed steel grill (microscopic film).
Carl