The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Lifter Question

I have recently purchased a 235- 1952 Chev Bel Air motor to put into my truck to replace my NFG motor. I had put all of the hydraulic lifters in order they came out᠁.unfortunately they got knocked over and now I do not know which bore they went into. I was going to engrave them before cleaning.
How gig a deal is it for them to be mixed up? What is the risk?
Looks like new lifters will cost a small fortune.

Mark

Each lifter establishes a running fit with the cam lobe it's mated with during the first few minutes of running when the engine is new. Mixing up used lifters can cause rapid wear of the lifter and the cam. Check the bottoms of the lifters with a straightedge like a 6" machinist's scale and a bright light. If the bottom of the lifter is flat, or worn concave with light visible at the center, the lifter is worn out. You should be able to rock the straightedge slightly from side to side on a good lifter. If the lifters are worn concave, the cam will have a corresponding wear problem.

The only really effective fix is to install a new or reground cam and new lifters, since even running fresh lifters against a worn cam can cause problems. There have been thousands of words written here and elsewhere about cam break-in procedures, and everybody is passionate about their own particular ideas of what's correct! Use the search feature to find "cam break-in" and get ready to settle down for a day or two of interesting reading!
Jerry

I've always found interesting, what the auto maker had to say
about break in. That always seems to be ignored when discussions
like this pop up, which by the way is as Jerry says, about
every other day.
The procedure that the GM factory used for millions upon
millions of automobile and truck engines was, to sell the
car to a little old lady and service it at 500 miles to remove
the light break-in oil. Refill with recommended oil then
forget about it and drive the heck out of it for 65 years.

The only instructions were to not go over 35mph for 100 miles,
45mph for the next 200 and 50mph for the next 200, after
which bring it in for service, which very few ever did
since it wasn't a covered expense.

Replacing all used parts in their original positions is old
and good advice, which any mechanic that is worth his salt
would follow. This goes for the entire valve-train.

Highly loaded valve trains, such as those that are used in
high performance engines are intended for an entirely
different animal than these mild minored stovebolt engines.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Thanks guys;
I will look into lifters and cam replacement. Was hoping to avoid that to keep expenses down. I checked the lifters and the are definitely worn out on the bottom.
I assume I can still get a cam and lifter combination?

Mark

I was very impressed with Rock Auto for internal engine parts. When I called the machine shop to get the parts, he told me that HIS cost was what Rock Auto sells them for. If you choose your engine year and Bel Air if hydraulics and they should have the cam and the lifters, AND the gaskets, and the Cam Gear.

OR...

For about $130 you can get just the lifters which doesnt require a complete tear down and live with the cam for awhile, then replace the lifters again when you are ready to rebuild. The reason I say this is because replacing the cam requires a complete tear down (close enough) and you aren't replacing cam bearings, or crank and rod bearings, or anything while you are at it? You are right there! But I understand because the machine work would be expensive. Lots of choices. None are pretty.

One thing to remember is that the splash-oiler 235's will have the cam with the small-diameter bearings. It's basically the same cam core as a 216, but with a hydraulic-lifter profile ground on it. Original-equipment cams are getting very scarce, and I don't know if anyone is manufacturing new cams with that journal size. If your cam isn't badly worn, it can be reground to original-equipment timing and lift. If you can't find a suitable new cam and lifter combination with a hydraulic-lifter grind, don't discard that old cam core!
Jerry

Thanks Jerry;
Yes i will hang on to them for sure. I haven't done any cam measurements yet, still looking for the specs for the Bel Air, but did notice that the cam from my original motor had the same casting number on it. I have found 2 cams on by Sealed Power CS-338 and one by Melling CCS-12. I'm going to do some more research before I commit. Sealed Power seem to be the more economical way to go. Any opinions on either manufacturer?

Mark

according to Donny Johanson of howards cams, there is only 2 places in the entire country that makes blanks for these engines and neither one of them is making small journal blanks, there are however large journal blanks available. As of a year or so ago, there were no NEW small journal cams available, all of them are reground. Doesn't mean someone somewhere doesn't have a stash somewhere though. It doesn't look to be that much trouble to bore the cam journals out to fit the large journal cam though. I could be wrong though.

Why couldn't a large-journal cam have the bearing areas ground to the smaller diameter? If a cam grinding machine isn't capable of doing that, surely a little creative setup on a crankshaft grinder would get the job done. Making stuff smaller is easy! I'll bet I could do that on a good lathe with a tool post grinder.
Jerry

Good point!
I'll let you know what I find. It looks like the Melling cam has all the same size bearings at 2.0292

Stovebolt cams have 4 different size bearings, reducing in size from front to rear. Here's the dimensions:

Small journal cam Federal-Mogul bearing set 1094M
1: 2.028/2.029
2: 1.965/1.966
3: 1,903/1.904
4: 1.840/1.841

Large journal cam Federal-Mogul bearing set 1170M
1: 2.153/2.154
2: 2.091/2.092
3: 2.028/2.029
4: 1.966/1.967

I don't see any reason a large journal cam couldn't be ground down for the small-journal bearing set unless there's a big difference in the lobe height that would prevent the lobes from passing through the small journal holes in the block.
Jerry

I was wondering the same thing when skimming thru this thread
earlier Jerry.
Didn't want to say anything since I don't have a 216 and 235
cam in the shop to compare.

It would be interesting to see how the lobes compare side by
side and whether the locations are the same distance for the
bearing journals. If you ground that much off you now doubt
would be thru the case and it would have to be re-heat treated
once you had it roughed in.

Wish I had all the time in the world to play with something
like that. When a part becomes extinct that's when it draws
my attention.

dg

Why would the cam bearing journals need to be casehardened? Crankshafts aren't, and they run in the same type of multi-layered bearings. Now, lobes are another matter- - - -some of them do get some type of surface-hardening. Iskenderian used to sell a "hard face" cam for sprint car racing purposes, but the installation instructions warned users to NEVER idle the engine- - - -keep it revved up above idle speed all the time. The automotive machine shop where I ran the connecting rod department for a while reground cams, and I don't remember them ever rehardening one after grinding the lobes.

I've got both large and small-journal cams stashed away, and I just might set up a tool post grinder on the lathe one of these days and see if I can make a late model cam fit an early block.
Jerry

What about Parkerizing? That was done to cam lobes wasn't it?
Jon

Here's a relatively new surface-hardening process used by Comp Cams:

http://www.corvetteonline.com/tech-stories/engine/camshaft-technology-what-is-the-nitriding-process/

Parkerizing is a substitute for bluing used primarily in the firearms industry. It's more of a rust preventative process than hardening. I do that on some of the military rifles I rebuild if the owner wants a period-correct finish on something like a M-1 Garand or a 1903-A3 Springfield. All that's required for Parkerizing is the right chemical solution, a stainless steel submersion tank, and a heat source.
Jerry

I wouldn't think that Parkerizing would offer a heck of a lot
of wear protection to a cam and it seems that it would be
scrubbed of in short order during brake-in as it doesn't
penetrate the surface to any depth the same as bluing.

Now Nitriding is a different story. Very informative article
there on comp cams. Nitriding has been use for machine tools
for ages, interesting to learn that it's being applied to
engine parts also. Nitriding also falls into the category of
heat treat.
That cams are not heat treated was a surprise to me Jerry. I
guess I was relying on articles from ASM Heat Treat Society's
magazine HTPro from 2013 dealing with commercial heat
treating methods for crankshaft and camshafts.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do with the 235
cams. To bad someone like comp cams can't be talked into
making a run of 216 camshafts. I'll bet you could get them
made in china, only problem is, like all Harbor Freight items,
they wouldn't work when you got them home.

dg

The race engines we used to build got a hardening process on the crankshaft journals which required the shaft to be straightened and re-polished after the procedure, but I can't remember the name of it. I believe it was called "Tufftriding". Unless the hardening on a crankshaft goes extremely deep, I can't believe the hundreds of thousands or maybe millions cranks that have gotten reground 10, 20 or 30 thousandths undersize in the 50-something years I've been fixing cars are all running without being re-hardened. I can see an advantage to doing some sort of hardening process on cam lobes, but since we're discussing resizing a round area without lifter pressure, it doesn't seem to be that important to worry about the hardness of cam bearing areas.
Jerry

I found this cam at Chevs of the 40's. I have to wonder if it is correct for my application? I would hate to order it and be wrong᠁.
https://www.chevsofthe40s.com/detail/7520/Chevrolet_Camshaft_Hydraulic_New.html
https://www.chevsofthe40s.com/detail/7516/Chevrolet_Lifters_Hydraulic_Powerglide.html
Mark

Mark,

Did you post above the engine serial number that is pressed into the block to the rear of the distributor?

What is that code?

Give that code to Chevs of the 40s (and post it here).

I'd suggest asking the vendor to confirm the bearing diameters and compare them to the cam you remove from your engine. That's a pretty healthy bite to the old pocketbook, so follow the old carpenter's adage "measure twice, cut once" before you shell out any money!

Be aware that removing the cam is a pretty involved process- - - -drop the oil pan to get the two bottom bolts out of the timing cover, remove two bolts holding the cam thrust plate to the front of the engine block, and remove the distributor and fuel pump and all the lifters before the cam can be slid out the front of the block. Don't let the cam lobes drag across the cam bearings, or they will cut big gouges in the soft metal of the bearings and cause oil pressure losses.
Jerry

Hello Tim;
The code is KAQ 159225. I was trying to find an email address for them to ask them but don't see one. Looks like I will need to call them.

Mark

"Please read the complete description" What does that mean???
They post that to all of their items yet I've never seen a
"complete description" anywhere on their site.

dg

Jerry;
I have the motor all apart now, so getting the measurements will be easy. I believe I have the original bearing specs as well.

Mark

Denny;

I thought it was just me᠁.thats what worries me about ordering blind basically. The Melling cam I found info on had all the same size bearings rather than being staggered in size.

Mark

the answer to why can't a large journal cam have the bearings ground down is easy, the journals were larger to allow a larger base circle for the lobes, and the last lobe doesn't fit through the second to last bearing, necessitating a regrind. At least that is what happened to me. I had the journals on my brand new cam from howard cams ground to the smaller dimension, when it didn't fit, I sent it to delta cam to regrind, and they lost it and gave me a GMC cam, I eventually ended up with an old regrind that had at least been reground twice. I had $300 dollars into that old wore out cam before it was all said and done... That is why.

Can you put hydraulic lifters in a 216?

Can you put hydraulic lifters in a 216? [/quote]

I have purchased a 1952 Chev Bel Air 235 that had hydraulic lifters in it.

Mark

216s were not set up to accommodate hydraulic lifters (in any year).

Your 1952 Chevrolet Bel Air has a 235 that was set up for hydraulic lifters (with a Powerglide engine - right?).

A 1952 truck 235 was not set up to accommodate hydraulic lifters.

No truck 235 before 1958 was set up to accommodate hydraulic lifters.

Mark, its good to call and find out. Be sure to have your engines serial numbers and part numbers ready. Thats a decent price. While it is broken down that far, and someone else should really help here, but I would want to check the bearing surfaces of the mains and rods. If there is any blowby, rings even. I realize its a babbit motor, but they do have insert bearing rods available. At least they used to. I have no idea if you can plastigage babbit.

I mean, it's apart already. Good luck!

Good to know about the base circle on the lobes being different! If a large-journal cam core got the bearing journals ground down, and then a splasher 235 hydraulic lobe was ground onto the core, it would basically be a "new" cam- - - -all the surfaces would be fresh. Since nobody is producing new small journal cams, that might be the only way to get that job accomplished! Just be sure the cam grinding facility has a good inventory control system!
Jerry

I just spoke with Ed from Chevs of the forty's. The cam they list is the large journal bearings. They did have the small journal type but no longer are available. Does anyone know where I can find the specs for the original cam for the 52 Bel Air 235 with power glide? I would like to be able to measure mine to see just how worn it is. The info I have is for the bearing surface diameter only.

Mark

Hey Mark, if you don't find out what you need you might contact Delta Cams. They may have that info. I know some here have had good things to say about their cams for our Stovebolts.
http://deltacam.com/

Dennis

Thanks Dennis, I'll give them a try.

Mark

I'm with you Mark. I would love to have actual specs on each lobe, how high it should be, the depth of the base circle, everything so that I can tell when to replace a cam. How much wear is within tolerance, etc. There would be more to it, like degree angle of each lobe, etc. But I have to wonder how many times cams were changed when they didn't have to be. Can you send yours off to be reground? I would check with the company above and maybe investigate the possibility of getting it ground, then put new lifters to it.

Its all a mystery to me, but you can take a stock cam that's brand new and get a performance grind, which is removing meat and it supposedly IMPROVES performance.

It's fairly simple to check cam lobes for uniformity- - -a set of V blocks, a dial indicator and a degree wheel is all that's required. Just remember that the degree measurements from the cam timing will have to be doubled to get "crankshaft degrees" since the cam runs at 1/2 engine speed. Sort of a "Dirt Track 101" skill for anybody who has done any high performance work.
Jerry

the way they make it a performance cam is they grind down the heel portion rendering the pointier portion effectively taller, giving you extra meat at the top to increase duration, and also making the fatter portion move up as well to enable a faster lift to be ground into the lobe. Each regrind reduces the base circle somewhat. The actual shape is slightly different for each performance characteristic. Like to open the valve faster/slower, keep the valve open for more, or less time. to overlap the other valve in that cylinder more or less. Most of it you would not really be able to check with a dial indicator, other than uniformity with the other lobes, unless you had the full list of where it should be at what degree from TDC or wherever they start from. I suppose you could get the full specifications from the cam manufacturer, but generally you just get lift, duration, lobe separation, overlap. How exactly they get there is kind of a trade secret.