The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Project 1959 235 Rebuild

Just updating much of nothing. Turns out my friend the owner of the engine shops wife had a massive heart attack. When they revived her she then had a mild stroke. He has been really preoccupied so that is why my engine isnt ready yet.

She woke up complaining about chest pain and turns out it was burns on her chest from the paddles hitting her so many times. She came home today and is expected to fully recover. Not sure if Jim ever will. That was the worst time in my life when it happened to my wife. Something you never forget. Anyhow, I am looking forward to documenting everything, and he is back to taking pictures of the process, so more to come hopefully soon. At least it turned out okay.

Wish them the best from us Stovebolters!
Carl

I got an email from Jim, the owner of the machine shop. I can actually tell you how much my sandblasting (40psi) and 400 grit paper piston cleaning method made when it comes to piston to cylinder clearance! This is what he said:

Specs call for .0015"-.0025" piston to block clearance. The block only varies .001 taper from the bottom to within 1 inch of the top. However the bottom of the cylinder is .002" over .060" giving us .004"-.0045" clearance. I don't believe the clearance has changed more than .0005" with cleaning the pistons and honing the cylinders. This can be reduced by knurling the pistons. The top ring groove on the pistons is also worn enough that they should be machined for a ring groove spacer to bring that back to standard clearance. Cost for knurling and ring spacers is $89.70 for the set. .080" pistons are $124.26 a set. This engine was running with that clearance when it was assembled the last time. It has a long skirt piston that lessens the need for a tight clearance and I know people run them this loose but I don't know if they have any noise or blowby. The ring end gap will increase by .006". Let me know if you want run like it is or bore it .080".

I am instructing him to go ahead and go .080 over. I do not want to pay for all of this machine work only to have too loose of an engine and blowby. Does this make sense?

I would go with the boring block 80 over also Deve. Seems a much longer term solution for $30. I do wonder how he knew what clearances the engine had last time it was assembled. How much volume you gain at 80 over? 235 goes to ?

Hope someone who knows says something. No idea Allen. The email above is the raw statement he gave me. I will ask him next time I bug him about getting it done. LOL! One of the hazards of going with the areas best machine shop, you gotta wait your turn.

One other thing Deve, did you have to go all the way to 80 over from 60 over? Is their no interim step? Not sure how far you can go on these blocks...maybe your great grandkids will want to take it another 20 in a couple decades.

I get my info from our very own Hot Rod Lincoln. I really DO trust his knowledge in most things, and it was him that said in another post somewhere that if you wanted, you could take it over .100 (or more) safely. That corresponds with what my machine shop tells me. There is no interim step without going the custom route and paying ALOT more.

This engine would not be the one I would suggest anyone rebuild. When I noticed the minute the head was off the .060 on the top of the pistons, I knew it had reached, for the most part, the end of its rebuild life. But its the one I chose to start with and since it IS safe to go to .080, I think it will make a very nice engine for any purpose. I have seven other engines and I could have done another, but I want to use each of them the best way, so here we are! The head is in VERY good condition and its an 848 so I am thinking this engine will be awesome when its done.

I have a goto guy in England of all places that is very generous with his information. Thanks again Jeff! This will help make more sense out of displacement numbers:

235 Stock: (bore ÷ 2)^2 × stroke × Pi × 6 = 235.49"

+.080" = 246.18"

Hopefully my new 246 will be back from the machine shop soon so I can finish the article.

So I am waiting on stuff and have nothing better to do.. let's figure out some numbers for the tenths (some of the more common) bore configurations based on Pi being 3.14159:

235 Engines: Based on Bore of 3.5625/Stroke is 3.9375
Based on Formula: (bore ÷ 2)^2 × stroke × Pi × 6 =
.000 Overbore: 235.490
.010 Overbore: 236.813
.020 Overbore: 238.141
.030 Overbore: 239.472
.040 Overbore: 240.807
.050 Overbore: 242.146
.060 Overbore: 243.488
.070 Overbore: 244.834
.080 Overbore: 246.184

261 Engines: Based on Bore of 3.7500/Stroke is 3.9375
Based on Formula: (bore ÷ 2)^2 × stroke × Pi × 6 =

.000 Overbore: 260.930
.010 Overbore: 262.323
.020 Overbore: 263.721
.030 Overbore: 265.121
.040 Overbore: 266.526
.050 Overbore: 267.934
.060 Overbore: 269.346
.070 Overbore: 270.762
.080 Overbore: 272.182

I realize you can't get some of these bores without requesting a custom setup, but they are interesting nonetheless.

Added Pressure Testing of the Head and Valve Grinding pictures sent by the machine shop to near the bottom of the article.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Looks like new Hydraulic Lifters are $7.50 each and grinding the old ones is $7.50 each, so new lifters are on the way. The full flow oil mod has been completed and pictures are forthcoming. The new cam is being sent off for tweaking. He says I am about two weeks from getting it all back. Can't wait!

I am told my machine shop is ready for me to pick up the engine! As we speak, I am literally Break Dancing! Remember that? Woot!

If I am correct, I am getting back a full pressure, full oil filtering 235 (246 due to the .080 overbore), with a threaded
crank, light performance Cam, 848 head in perfect condition, fully machined engine ready to be assembled. He decided I needed new push rods due to pitting, did a little balancing/grinding of the piston rods, and new Hydraulic Lifters, and of course new Pistons. He even ground the rockers because he felt it had too many deep striations to be acceptable. Special Thanks to Bruce "Phat" Childs and The StoveBolt for the instruction on how to do the Full Flow Oil setup. My machine shop used that instruction, understood it, and did it just that way. Can't wait to see it!

Jim, the machine shop owner told me to NOT EVER put Assembly Lube on Piston Rings! Just regular oil. Apparently the Lube causes them to not seat properly. I did NOT know that! Way more interesting things coming SOON!

I sat in at my stool, looking at the engine stand today, then researched everything there is (here and elsewhere) on how to connect an inline 6 to these modern engine stands, decided I do not like how they connect, and am in the middle of making a special plate for it so this issue is no longer an issue! I will get the engine and lots lots lots more to come very soon!

Things are starting to happen again! The engine is back so I scanned the invoice for the work done at the machine shop, then made a mounting plate for our 6 cylinder engines to bolt up nicely to the engine stand. The next thing is cleaning and painting. Stay Tuned!

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Good to hear!

Nice sturdy mount. Amazing you can see in your close up picture of the block its weight pulling against the engine plate snout you made despite it's stout design.
If you decide on a second engine stand one day consider buying a geared stand for easier block rotation.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200349940_200349940

I like that! That could be adapted for a motor even.

Here is a homemade gear set up using some sort of truck brake adjuster. Pretty clever. A 55 second video.

very clever. All I need is to see it up close. Thing is, I don't use my stand that often and I am turning it alot these past few days and its not hard to turn. I like the first one. If I ever do this for a living.... Thanks Drew!

Added everything to the point of installing the Cam. Guys don't hesitate to let me know if there is anything I am saying that's wrong.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Looking good Deve, thanks for posting the invoice. Great detail as usual.

I feel like a one armed paper hanger these days! Rebuilding an engine by myself, taking the pics to go with the narrative, and then coding the website. Its something I enjoy, but most of the satisfaction comes from getting it right. So please double check me, be critical, its the only way I know to get things tuned in properly.

The bottom end is just about ready for buttoning up. Comments most appreciated now before I bolt up the oil pan! Thanks everyone!

Couple questions Deve, you may have covered, but I didn't see it.

1) For you sheet metal parts, oil pan, valve cover, timing chain cover, side cover, etc. Did you have a step to check gasket surfaces with a long straightedge (I use one side of a big square) and true up if needed.

2) Did you decide against a twin pulley HB for a/c?

3) Did you have the machine shop balance the clutch assembly along with the crank?

Allen, yes I checked the gasket surfaces, but didnt include that. Good point!

The confusion here is that my actual 1950 deluxe build has a 1964 261 engine with dual pulley HB and many other great features. Yes, I am still doing AC. For the build, I did have the clutch resurfaced and balanced.

This engine is my test engine for the PCV system and HEI system I am trying to get going. So its a different engine I am documenting. The 261 is already done and I am on the cabs paint process for the build.

I will stop short of clutches, trans, any drivetrain on this article and concentrate just on the engine. Make sense?

I added alot of content including the valve adjustment procedure for Hydraulic Lifters. I wanted to go into the theory a bit more and I might have things a little off. I will happily change whatever is wrong. Please tell me what doesnt make sense. Thanks!

I also have alot of changing of the documents readability. It is far from finished in that regard.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235 near the bottom.

I am finally very close to done with this procedure. The last thing is the initial break-in runup. I am waiting on some very elusive 3/8" NPT to -6AN adapters which should arrive this week. I am going to very extensive lengths to ensure the 20 minute runup goes smoothly. I hope I have learned enough from you guys throughout the years to have a successful runup. Guess we will see near the end of the week.

I have addressed most of the readability issues but let me know what you think it needs.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

It took me two weeks to muster up the courage to fire mine up after I had it rebuilt and on the frame. It went without a hitch.

I got my adapters for the full flow oil filter modification yesterday, did a few preliminary things. Such as:

1) filled with break-in oil and ran my drill with the screwdriver tip in the oil pump to ensure that mod was done properly. Great oil to the rockers and 30psi oil pressure with the drill running the oil pump. Since 30psi is where the oil pump bleeds off, I am VERY pleased with this.

2) Opened the StartKarts fuel petcock and ran the starter with power off to check for leaks and proper fuel delivery. Opened the carb to check the bowl. Found I hadn't properly screwed the Jet in place. It was sitting in the bowl! Fixed that. I happen to totally agree with Joe... have a KNOWN WORKING carb to run the breakin runup. I do not, so I had to roll the dice.

3) After removing the totally wrong rubber O-Ring on the distributor, (if you have one, burn it!), the distributor set in perfectly, but its always a hassle getting the oil pump aligned and the rotor in the right place. Just take your time. Make sure you have no more than 3/8" between the top of the distributor shaft and the top of the vac advance bracket. This is a KILLER! Whatever you do, don't be a Deve and not look at the oil pressure gauge and monitor it carefully! Nothing wrong happened, but it sure could have!

4) Even if you have a rubber exhaust pipe to the garage door (hole for that purpose) that is made for servicing engines, a 20 minute run at 2000 rpm is a very long time and the rubber starts to smoke, the oil starts to smoke (residual oil from the rocker assembly), etc. and your shop will be overrun with cloudy! So, turn on your paint ventilation fan, live with the smoke, and be happy!

I upped the speed to 2250 for the last 5 minutes per Joe's fantastic instruction. Went without a hitch this morning! Pressure remained at 30 psi throughout the run. After the run, I checked compression.. 117,118,122,117,119, 120 with breakin oil.

A few anomalies... Be sure to bend those tabs on your flywheel bolt retainers. I torqued them down (I swear!) and I started hearing goofy sounds.. and enough of them backed off to cause noise.

As my good friend Allen Lane says... "I HATE these shows you watch where the break-in run goes perfectly smooth." You KNOW better! Allen, you are so right. Anyone who has a non-eventful first break-in run is LYING. I don't even want to hear anyone playing Mr. Perfect trying to lie their way into the record books. Keep that one to yourself. Not a hobbyist. An engine specialist MAYBE. (not picking on you Carl.. I am a very big fan and can learn alot from you.)

Don't you feel that way when programs like PowerNation TV that I watch before Church on Sunday (uh huh) show these very enhanced engines just WORK like some miracle? Well, call me skeptical.

In any case, I am SO HAPPY tonight! WOW! After months of rebuilding, waiting, etc etc.. it ALL turned out PERFECT! I want everyone to know that if I can do it, it is merely you needing to get over your own mental worry and just haul off and DO it! The reason is because I am not anything over average and if I can do it YOU can do it.

Also, John, Peggy, the entire StoveBolt.com staff.. I am very thankful for this forum and the experts, and the amateurs here who help me think things through. Remember, as you have heard 1000 times, anything that is on my site, I am happy to put on your site. The success of this endeavor was not because of the guy who did all the physical work, ordered all the parts, and did all the grunt (as in you know, Jarhead) stuff. It was possible thanks to each of YOU! And I am deeply honored to be a member here and thankful for ALL of your friendships. Even Marines! LOL!

This is also true... Friendships do not come cheap. Sometimes you have to say things you would rather not in order to get people to understand you are not a threat, but rather a close personal friend who cares. It is not acceptable to EVER pick on another member. Otherwise why stick your neck out? So anyone offended by me, understand I went out of my way to offend YOU...the most sincere, and manly way to get across that I care.
If this sounds goofy, you have NEVER been in the US Military.

To much BS? Whatever.. just accept my sincere thanks. Everyone! On to testing PCV Valves and HEI Systems. We WILL all benefit!

Congratulations Deve. Glad it went well. It wasn't an accident. Looking forward to the video when we get to hear and see it run.

The main apprehension was the full flow oil filter mod. Until you see it for yourself, its sort of strange. The fact is, it works exactly like the 1958-62 261. The dowel IN is the same as plugging the mains going both ways. Thanks to Mr Childs and Stovebolts tech tips for my machine shop doing a perfect job.

How it works is, the oil pump screen pulls the oil from the bottom of the oil pan into the oil pump, the oil is pumped directly from the pump into the spin on filter adapter, then exiting, goes back into the engines main galleys and does its work. So, ALL 100% of the oil is filtered FIRST. Just like the 261. It costs $100 at the machine shop to ensure you have ALL of your oil filtered before it ever reaches the rest of the engine. Money WELL spent.

Was this sort of what you had in mind Allen?

Nice job Deve. Done like a pro. That is one smooth running, good looking shiny engine. I am truly jealous.

It would have been nice to have a younger, better looking shop stooge, but them's the breaks! I will be finishing up the build article in the coming days, then its off to learning about other stuff. Thanks!

I added everything I have for the time being. If anyone has suggestions on how to improve this document, please don't hesitate to say something. It has been a real adventure and I couldn't have pulled this off without you guys. Thanks!

In the future I will add more machine shop pics as I get them, and anything else you guys might suggest. Check it out here:

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235