Hidiy all- I'm needing some repair patch panels for the front lower portion of my 55.2 3100's rear fenders. Is there a source for these? The steps are good, but the lower part of the fender on both sides needs to be replaced. They are rusted through. This section curves down and then inward- I'm reluctant to even think about thinking about trying to make these.
I searched, but I did not find any repair panels for a 1955 3100 Second series. Thanks for any help- Brad
I think these would be a perfect time to loose those inhibitions... If you'll search MP&C's posts and links you should find plenty of reasons and support for considering taking the project on yourself.
If it still seems to daunting just buy a new set of fenders since what your asking for involves welding, grinding and bumping anyway. One route costs Time, the other costs Money. I haven't found any other routes.
CASO, you're right. I keep catching myself looking for simple solutions to keep myself on a truck project timeline/schedule that doesn't even exist.
Nothing seems too daunting about making a couple of curved fender panels, even if only because I'll have to do both sides of the truck...at least maybe they'll match.
For the "costs money" portion I just wanted to make sure there weren't any patch pieces available for $39 or something and I couldn't find them. I'm just not able to rationalize paying $400+ (ea) for two new fenders- so that's out of the question. --- I actually just went to the steel shop at lunch, so I have an idea of how much the metal will cost. So... what's my starting point if I try this out? I used to tie a baseball up in my ball cap's brim to get it to stay shaped- that won't work here, and I appreciate any advice.
I happened to have a picture of the fenders on my phone...don't anybody read my comment and think I'm getting over confident about being able to make these things. That's some serious fabrication work.
Well MP&C's links and 'tutorials' were what gave me the courage to take a bigger bite. Well worth a few hours or days of reading in my book. I get the preference for using a preformed piece, I used the bottom half of new cab corners on my on my project and then found the top half worked great for the lower cowl patch. If you could find some later model dualy fenders at the Upick they might be easier to cut your patches out of... just a thought. They'd be cheap practice metal and already have some contours/ lower flange bend to mess with... maybe.
I read through a LOT of the tutorials/documentation MP&C does & there's a lot more I bookmarked for later... outstanding craftsmanship there & a wealth of knowledge. Good thing I'm in to learning is all I can say.
I don't know how to describe it except it is motivating to do the work myself, but it is also a bit 'daunting' at the same time.
OK- so the spots that looked the worst (in the fender curve) ended up just being surface rust after blasting, so now I'm looking at replacing the bottom two inches of sheet metal where the fenders meet the step.
Rear fender pictures after blasting & epoxy primer, and it's outlined where I have to cut out.
I agree with Brad I've watched MP&C post on metalmeet.com along with other posters on the site. And with there help I'm now building and patching panels and there coming out prity good! Patience is the key for me and it is rewarding doing it my self. Pluss a lot Cheaper
Bill
These old bolts are in my blood. Hard thing is focusing on just one.
1937 Chevy 1/2 ton panel 1953 GMC 2 ton. future car hauler
Guys I've been to quite a few workshops and my limited abilities wouldn't be where they are today if it weren't for the generosity of others at these workshops to help others. My posts are put out there, paying it forward, to help others do the same. But nothing beats the hands-on experience you'll get at one of these workshops. Brad, I see you are in Huntsville. One of the owners of the Allmetalshaping site lives near Huntsville and has a "Dixie meet" every year for guys to get together and learn the craft and share ideas. His name is Kerry Pinkerton, look on the Allmetalshaping site under events, then look for Dixie Meet. Be forewarned, this is not an event that you bring your fender and expect someone else do the work for you. But it is very much a hands on learning experience, so do bring a fender and the guys are more than willing to help develop your skills where you can do the work yourself. Show a man how to fish kind of thing...
I'm somewhat embarrassed about the simplicity (I've since been told by some co-workers who make very expensive metal repairs on very expensive systems) of this little piece, but I'm getting the metal stock this evening to start a layout for the repairs. There are two main differences here that will be a first for me: 1) there is not a pre-formed patch piece to start with, and 2) this is the first time I need the end result to look good (great) with this thin of metal.
I'll look into the Dixie meet, thanks for the info, and honestly it would be a huge let down (to me) if I did show up with a piece and someone else did the work. I'll fit that in with my infrequent blacksmithing 'apprenticing.' That name sounds very familiar, as well...
Today's one year to the day I've been on this forum and I can't even count my number of "first times" of doing things related to this truck anymore; all the 'paying it forward' on here is appreciated.
Re: Kerry: that's right, I remember the name from a metal working thread & noticed they were about 15 miles from my house.
I'll keep this thread going over the weekend, and I had a big piece of 16 ga. sheet metal (3'x4'+) donated to me by another local bolter early this morning; most likely so I would not have an excuse to not try this myself. Works for me. I'll do some more studying to figure out a starting point.
16 is a bit thick, I believe to use for the lower fender patch. The stiffener plate inside for bolting the running boards would be a good place to use it, however. If you can't find 19 ga, 18 ga, or whatever the fender mic's out to be, Kerry should have some stock he could sell you..
Gauging the exact size needed is an excellent starting point. I didn't want to turn down this sheet for use either way, and I'm going to mic it as well just to be certain it is 16.
The fender mic'd to 0.046-0.049, depending on the location- close enough for 18 ga. I'm still looking for some 18 ga, and may end up taking apart something in the house. We had a city-wide power outage yesterday, so traffic lights were down, and I couldn't make it in time to get any welding gas either. This is about the way things go when you actually HAVE time to do something...
A 19 ga sheet- as mentioned- would probably be perfect but I have never seen that size; never looked either. I did bend a single piece of the 16 ga just to see how it would go. It isn't pretty, but I would use it if this was a tractor or something. I'll use it to estimate size needed.
How far off (+/-") is within margin for the patch metal?
Finally found some 18ga, practiced a bunch, and got to a stopping point on ONE patch. It was easier to get the curve profile correct on an English wheel, and I was able to get the inner fender angle perfect.
That's where I'm at... I'm not sure how I'll get the curving corner bend correct but I guess I'll try with a dolly & ball peen hammer.
From what I've read, I'm thinking I'll make some relief cuts for the lower bend (inwards & not visible) in order to keep the " curve" profile spot on.
Right now the piece I have is larger than it needs to be, so what is the preferred method in this scenario: should I cut the patch to the shape of the fender metal that has to be replaced (an "L" section), or cut out the fender & patch with the whole piece I now have? Here's some not so good pictures I took.
Thanks for any pointers; can't get my shielding gas til Monday.
Well as I see it, in the time it took a bunch of guys in Georgia to knock a ball into a hole 72 or so times... you've gone from 'reluctance to even thinking about' it to first draft mock up. Paper templates get you where you want to got fast. Tape , Trace, Transfer. When I do something like this the first time I usually figure my first one's a practice piece going in. Once I've made the first one I know how to make a better second one
From what I've read, I'm thinking I'll make some relief cuts for the lower bend (inwards & not visible) in order to keep the " curve" profile spot on.
Brad, you should be able to use a shrinker on the lower flange to help provide the radius. The relief "pie" cuts are not the best choice as now you have more welding to do and it also runs a greater risk of missed welds for rust trap voids, especially given the dirt/road spray, mud that will get thrown up there from the tires.. Here's a thread I did on flange shrinking to accomplish what you need, and it covers a couple different methods. (Kerry also has a powered shrinker called a Piccolo that would have it done in less than a minute..)
For the pattern that you'll use, and since you have an English Wheel to help add some shape, I'd suggest using a flexible shape pattern, as shown here, towards the bottom of the post... You'll see using craft paper to help read a panel as to whether it needs shrinking or stretching, and then using the FSP to have a reference to use on your patch..
For the use of the FSP, this gives a brief scenario where a patch has been made, and the FSP is laid on top of it. Any loose areas in the middle of the FSP would show that more shape is needed to fill out the loose pattern. Loose around the edges of the FSP would show that you have too much shape in the middle.
Also, towards the bottom you'll see a patch formed for a Stovebolt AD fender, using the above described methods. Now sure if your fender has any remnants still inside, but the inner view of the fender in that post shows what's left of a strip of metal on the inside that reinforces the bolting area of the running board. This is where I was suggesting to use the 16 ga steel.
CASO- yeah...I noticed the quick change of heart myself- thanks for the boot to my rear end. That's all it takes sometimes...
Originally Posted by MPandC
"pie" cuts are not the best choice as now you have more welding to do and it also runs a greater risk of missed welds for rust trap voids, especially given the dirt/road spray, mud that will get thrown up there from the tires..
That's a really good point about the location of the curve & future road spray. That helps me to back up & review what the actual function of this piece is. The 16 ga is perfect for the lower flange that the steps bolt into- shaped somewhat like a 'dogleg'. They are still there, but need to/must be replaced.
Aside from the lower curve (that Robert linked tips on), the last piece of practice 18 ga came out decent from using a plastic 3 ring notebook cover as a pattern. It bent similar to what the metal would do, and didn't cut me up. It'll be paper from now on. The English Wheel is at an auto skill center I have access too Wed-Sun; it took a while to get the hang of it even though it is a simple machine to use. I've since watched a video on what some people CAN do with one & I'm nowhere near that proficient.
Another note in my 5 days of this patch panel attempt: metal work is THE epitome of a hands-on skill; the videos & write ups are an amazing help, but doing metal work as opposed to theorizing on the work could not be any more contrasting. I like it & plan to practice some more tonight.
I didn't have time to weld a set of "tucking" pliers together, but I have the parts ready to make some. I roughed in some cheap pliers with a flap disc just to see how the hand shrinking would go. I flattened the practice piece out and cut out the curve in an actual 'curve' shape. It actually worked great...even with my rudimentary-makeshift tools. From my first practice run, it is evident why the tuck pliers need to be parallel, and as finished as possible.
The curve ended up splitting; I didn't put a good enough dimple in the tuck before I tried to hammer it out. I forgot to take pictures when I started, but here's a general idea of what it looked like. Remember, this is the same practice piece I already boogered up.
Hidiy all--- skipping forward to welding a panel in- I'll fill in-between details in later... If one of the MiG weld dots has a tiny, tiny hole in it, should I delicately cut it out with a dremel, or 'overlap weld' it once the weld spacing gets that close?
Set welder heat to provide full penetration weld dot. Planish the weld dots, use a 3" cutoff wheel to grind down the weld dots to just above panel surface, then overlap in making the next welds.
If your welder is set to provide full penetration welds on 18ish gauge metal, leaving weld dots there without grinding and trying to weld on top of weld is the same as increasing panel thickness anywhere from 3 to 5x the thickness. Essentially, you are setting yourself up for cold welds. Weld, planish, grind, repeat
Pictures of the left patch installed. I still have some hammer & dolly work to do after I weld in the inner mounting piece- and I'll have to weld that pesky corner split. I ended up splitting all three attempts at that spot, but at least it's hidden. I need a lot more practice. BUT, everything lines up, will mount to the step, & measures out correct. Solid metal there now...
Paint shop says they have some metal bondo or something they'll use to smooth it out before painting anyway. That doesn't hurt my feelings at all on my first patching attempt- I expect the other side fender to be a lot easier.
Enjoyed the work & hope to get a lot better. (Saved a bunch of money, too )
Nothing to this welding stuff, huh? Now that you have the complete weld seam done, here I'll normally do any final planishing to address any highs/lows and then grind it down just a bit more and then finish off with about an 80 grit sanding disc. On the stiffener for the running board/step, once bolted up the stiffener is going no where. So what I've done in similar situation (once holes are drilled) is to epoxy prime both inside of fender and complete stiffener. Let flash, spray another coat, and quickly bolt the two together. Epoxy will cure and hold the stiffener in place, and once bolted it will be there for good. Best part is no welding done to burn off the protective coatings between the two pieces, for better rust protection than originally there.
I've kind of surprised myself, mapleleaf. I'd call it some really fun therapy...
Originally Posted by MPandC
Nothing to this welding stuff, huh?
I don’t know the general consensus on it, but I don’t think sheet metal would be the easiest thing to learn welding on. There's quite a few (10+) butted-together 18 ga metal squares in my garage that look like Swiss cheese. I had to work the Swiss cheese-making out of my system first. I think you called them a coupon(?) in a tutorial, but I could be mistaken on that term. As soon as I could make the welds start looking like melted skittles, consistently with full penetration, I just moved over to the fender to practice. At that point, on the fender, no there wasn’t much to it. Welded, ground, planished, and took a break (before I repeated the process). I keep reminding myself I ain't on the clock and don't need to be in a hurry.
That is a smooth idea on the inner fender stabilizer! That will work out a lot better (from my practice) than plug welds. I did remember to mark off/measure the bolt hole spots. Thanks for mentioning drilling the holes, Robert- it could be an easily forgotten step.
Brad
Last edited by Uncle Brad; 04/21/201511:45 AM. Reason: deleted off-topic comment
Worked some more on the fender corner and it's the best I could do with it. I cut a piece of copper pipe in half, lengthwise, and clamped it on the backside of the corner to weld the small (0.25" long) split together. Planished and sanded some more on the weld joint.
Taping off the other fender with the FSP/flexible shape pattern paper right now. Using some paper I was referred to on another forum; it's paper used to cover and protect flooring during housing construction and I happened to have some. Maybe I can get a decent pattern complete tonight. I wish doing this work was my day job .
I wish doing this work was my day job.......I have to agree....then it wouldn't be as much fun.....followed this thread and see you had fun and learned a lot by trial and error.........which is one of the best ways to learn.....and got lots of excellent advice. You did very well. Be proud of your accomplishments. Have fun and good luck Dan
If I'd follow that excellent advice the first time I'd probably be done by now. I kept focusing on making the paper pattern tape to the fender curves, figuring it was a certain paper that would make a "better" shape to work with. How about I re-read the FSP tutorial from last week again? Maybe do what's recommended this time, maybe pay attention to the pictures?
I used some Glad Press & Seal (cling wrap) this go around for the other fender patch pattern, taped it up over the curves, cut it out, and what do you know- A perfectly curved shape pattern to work with... I even made one with the lower lip (picture of it) . It took about 20 minutes total to mess up one and then make a usable one; stopping to take those pictures too.
Geesh- I didn't figure anybody was reading along on this thread and it's sort of embarrassing now, but I'll keep it up. It might help somebody else down the road. The tutorials Robert writes up & documents are about like having somebody over your shoulder helping; if you follow the steps.
Brad, what kind of tape is that, looks to be a cloth medical tape? Get some of the packing tape with the fiber strands running longitudinally, makes a much better (more accurate) FSP. For something with a lot of shape in the panel, 1" wide is about as wide as you'd need as it will lay flatter in some of the high crown areas than wider tape. Use about 1/2 width overlap when applying the tape. Now when you make the next patch you should be able to take it and the FSP to the hobby shop and e-wheel until the FSP fits the patch. Also, there are two different theories of using the English wheel, one uses pressure, the other uses "pumping" with the wheels farther apart. Read through this before you have another go at the English wheel..
The pressure theory squeezes the metal panel between the pressure of the two wheels, pushing metal to the side as you go, eventually taking the shape of the radius of the anvil. This normally also leaves the tell-tale tracks everywhere. The pumping method uses the wheels farther apart, the panel is manipulated into the shape you are trying to put into the panel by pulling in at the sides and holding the shape there, then the wheels used with a gap between to act as a lever or fulcrum effect to push/pull shape where needed in a panel. Where some of the HF English wheels are absolute junk due to the wheels being out of round and floppy frames, this becomes less of an issue with the pumping method where someone should be able to use one to get adequate results if using that method. If relying on the "pressure" method, then the inaccuracy of the parts leads to more noticeable inconsistency in the finish.
Much better Now if you had only one good fender and one mangled one, you can make an FSP based on the good one, then flip that FSP inside out as a pattern for the bad side.
FYI, they aren't as "delicate" as you may think. Some of the metalmeet guys made some FSP's from a F/G car as a group build on a home-built aluminum car, mailed the FSP's around the world to participants that were coming to their yearly event, where they took the FSP out of a flat envelope, and made "their" part. They all got together at the event and put the puzzle pieces together.
Obviously, you are enjoying the metal working pause of your build. As an alternative, did you notice the pair of 1957 rear fenders for sale in Huntsville CL? They are located in Madison and priced at $200 for the pair. Ad states no rust through. Not my ad, just trying to be helpful.
Thanks for the tip on the CL add, but I gave up looking as soon as CASO called me out a couple of weeks ago (which wasn't a bad thing at all!).
Those were not listed for sale two weeks and two days ago, though- LOL!
Now, however, I wouldn't be able to drive the truck if I didn't make the second panel better than the first one I made. It'd gnaw at me pretty good... The auto skill shop was closed for interior construction work the last two days; re-opens tomorrow & I'll get back to work.
Brad, patch is looking good. Before scribing onto your fender for trimming, make that top right sharp 90 corner a radius, it will help to eliminate some weld distortion..
Welding into a tight corner allows the shrinking effects to "stack up" from the two welds where you'll get a pucker in the corner that is difficult to remove. A radius helps to balance the shrinking effects across both sides of the weld for an easier task of planishing.
Thanks & thanks for that tip, Robert. Obviously, it will be no problem cutting the 'patch' piece corner into a radius- I may have to bust out the Dremel to get a curve/radius cut into the existing fender metal though.
My pawn shop Dremel 4K? is all I have that will cut perpendicular to the motor rotation; the rest of my tools are (right) angle grinders. I already got stitches once this year from trying to hold the angle grinder too close to my work for some finesse sanding (it was just a paper-cut). I do have a really good jigsaw that might work.
)
Now if you had only one good fender and one mangled one, you can make an FSP based on the good one, then flip that FSP inside out as a pattern for the bad side.