The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Blueprinted crate engines vs Chevy HO performance engines

Hello to all. Does anyone out there drive a blueprinted 355 ? I'm trying to figure out if there is enough difference in a blueprinted vs a new 350 HO chevy performance crate engine to justify going from regular gas to a higher grade (blueprinted goes up a grade). The 355 is also built with a lot of up graded parts, I will not list them but I am looking at the Jegs website if anyone is interested. I am putting the engine in my 1965 fleetside that has a 700R4 tranny that I use as a daily driver/light duty work truck. Common sense would tell me to go with the 350/200 hp package, but I grew up in the 60's and I can't get rid of that little bit of hot rod left in me.
Joseph

I'm sure the performance guru's will chime in shortly but I think the grade of gas is mostly based on compression ratio and timing. They will have the answer you need.

Who sells a 200 HP 350? 2-barrel 283's had that much power back in the early 1960's! I have built numerous streetable 355's in the 300+ HP range, and my circle track small blocks went well over 600 on the dyno. Crate engines are OK for guys with no mechanical ability and a deep pocket, but where's the fun in that approach? It's like dating an ugly chick and using a big paper bag!
Jerry

I think that you misread something. It looks like the basic GM 350 motor is 260hp for 1509.97. It comes with a 3 year warranty. For what you are looking to do I'd go that route.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/10067353/10002/-1?parentProductId=#moreDetails

Don,
I guess that I was'nt clear enough. I am comparing a 350 HO performance 330 hp and a blueprint 355, 310 hp. In my last sentence I was trying but failed to be humorous stating that all I really needed was a 350/200 hp. Now that I reviewed my post several hours later, it did look confusing.
Thanks,
Joseph

Jerry,
Since this is my post, I'm thinking that you directed your statements to me personally. First, Summit and Jegs both sell 350/195 hp and up engines. Second, the statement that crate engines are OK for guys with no mechanical ability and a deep pocket, why would you make that statement about a fellow that you don't even know? Did you build the house that you live in? Did you wire your house? Did you plumb your house? All work done then inspected and passed by local and state codes. And who said it was taboo on this forum to have enough money to buy a crate engine if you want one? Have you got to be broke to ask a question? You did'nt even answer not one of my questions, so why did you reply? By the way, Just had surgery, thumb joint rebuilt, and have 2 collapsed discs in neck giving me hell so pardon me if I want to buy a ready to run crate engine. Maybe someone else in this forum might not be ashamed to buy one too.

Whoa, Bullhead Joe. Don't take anything personal here. Jerry has an immense data base of automotive technology and experience in his head. He is very helpful around here. But he is also very opinionated and doesn't mind sharing his opinions. He does it to everyone. Welcome to Stovebolt.

I have an opinion too. Mechanical ability or not, $1600 for a brand new engine with a 3 year warranty is a steal. I put one in my '56. It has been a dependable driver for over 20,000 miles with no problems. If you are looking for a dependable driver that is all you need.

Yes, I built my house. I plumbed it, I wired it, I poured and finished the concrete, designed the trusses, which withstood the weight of 5 inches of ice the first winter, and I also designed and plumbed the LP gas system. When I started out, the place was a concrete block construction Grade B dairy barn with a tin roof. Now it's a 3,000 square foot 2-story home worth in excess of $200,000.

Anything else you'd like to know about my construction experience? I also do structural steel erection, and industrial stainless steel pipefitting, operate cranes, and build custom deer rifles.
Jerry

Hey Bullhead Joe, don't sweat Hotrod's demeanor in his original reply. He was being jovial. Trust me, you will know when he doesn't like you.
Carl

ENOUGH guys. I like all opinions and I have a thick skull so if you want to rant on someone pick me

...sorry but I haven't met Bullhead Joe, but I have met Jerry on at least two occasions and chatted with him. I like a straight shooter and I'm sure if Bullhead will hang around here and get to know us he'll have stuff to contribute to.
Now, before we get our wrist slapped by the moderator lets move on. We all have our quirks. Besides, I learn something new here most everyday and a lot of old folks can't say that!

....so

Hi Joseph,

You have probably read reviews on the web about Blueprint Engines. Generally good, especially considering that most folks with positive experience don't post and folks with negative experiences often do.

That being said, my choice would be the Chevrolet Performance 350HO. Brand new block and Vortec heads, and a warranty backed by GM. Plenty of power, nice idle, regular gas. What's not to like?

I would advise to read the fine print on any crate engine warranty. There are some warranties that only apply if the engine is installed in certain "approved vehicles" and some that void the warranty if the engine is not installed by a "licensed mechanic". Know what you are buying before you buy it.

Bull give this guy a call. He was behind the booth at the Houston Autorama. Don Shryock 800-242-2844 at GM performance products. He can give you the scoop on warranties and anything else for that matter.

It might be interesting to hear a few opinions of just exactly what "blueprinting" means. I have my own definition of what I've been doing to precision-built engines since the early 1970's. Anybody game for this discussion?
Jerry

Jerry,

I'm guessing the term has been diluted like most other language these days. Most are probably just used a substitute for rebuilt, which in itself is a lot weaker than it used to be.

I build/rebuild antique and classic motorcycle engines. My definition of blueprint is:

* measure EVERY fit in the motor (bushings, shafts, bearings, end plays, runouts) and rectify if out of spec

* inspect EVERY part for serviceability. . . dimensions, surface condition, cracking, heat discoloration, etc

* calculate actual static compression using good old geometry/math and CCing the combustion chambers. From this, determine need (if any) for decking/milling various components and gasket thicknesses

* confirm flatness and condition of all mating faces and flanges

* replace every seal, gasket, retaining clip and other locking mechanisms (tab washers, roll pins, taper pins, etc)

* replace all ball/roller/shell bearings. replace bushes where out of spec or show wear

* clean/paint/polish/plate/finish all external parts where appearance is a concern (I'm in the clean camp, but don't waste much effort on the other stuff . . . mechanical perfection is my aim)

* assemble entirely using correct fasteners and specified torques. Use assembly lube, sleeve retainer, threadlocker, anti-seize where appropriate

* make note of all build decisions including observed dimensions, gasket thicknesses, fits/clearances, static compression, initial time, items that were modified from stock, items of concern or judgement

* test fire the motor to assure no leaks, sound build

Good thing I don't do this for a living. . . no one would want to pay for all that.

Jason

I guess I need to ask the question: does the OP mean to compare the Chevrolet Performance crate engine to the BluePrint Engines (a company) crate engine? Or to any "blueprinted" engine?

FWIW, to me, "blueprinted" means rebuilt to original factory "blueprint" specifications.

cm

That can be a real misnomer, because most factory engines aren't "blueprinted". Their factory specs are very wide from the high to the low tolerance and simply refitting the engine back to fit that range or those specs isn't blueprinting. In the racing world, blueprinting is many steps beyond what the factory delivered. Blueprinting a race engine means you tighten up the factory specs even more to a much more consistent and a more specified size for all the components, such as. For your bearing clearances for example, the factory specs may allow a range of .0005"- .0035" as acceptable. In a race engine that is blueprinted, you make all the bearing clearances the same exact size, such as .0025". This is also done by making all the journal sizes on the crank the same size on their respective rod or main journals, and making all the rod housing bores the same size with no taper or out of round, and the same for the blocks main housing bores, etc. Then you install the bearings and use precision measuring dial bore gages to verify and confirm these clearances around the entire ID of the bearing surfaces as well as the front to back length of the bearing surfaces. Then the cylinder bores are given the same treatment and all the pistons have the exact same clearances placed on them. Using a torque plate also is required to achieve this level of "blueprinting" status. And then the same is done for the wrist pin fitting, and valve guide honing, etc...So as you can see it's a much more involved process and elevates the cost of the engine over the cost of the plain rebuild by quite a bit. Its common for many rebuilders to use the "blueprint series" or similar moniker to define some level of precision above a stock rebuild that they perform, but whether they actually are skilled enough or have the necessary equipment to perform those elevated levels of precision they are claiming remains to be seen.

In reference to the original post the word "blueprint" is used as a trade name for an engine re-manufacturer. In the world of performance engines the term "blueprinted" is not just assembling an engine package with off the shelf parts. Each component is massaged, tolerances are set to a specific number. The deck height is machined to a precise spec, the lifter bores are all checked to make sure they are square and perpendicular. Combustion chambers are all measured and adjusted to be the same. All valve heights are set to exact measurements. I'm sure that I don't have everything listed. Its for sure a step up from a factory built engine or even a engine that is re-manufactured by a company that specializes in engine building.

That's true Don. I worked in a high level race engine shop in N. Georgia for over 15 years, and you would be surprised by what our customers would drag in that they mail ordered from some of these big name suppliers that were supposed to be ready to race and we would have to basically redo the whole setup....so what did they buy? Just the name and that was it. No quality at all. So buyer beware for sure.

Joseph,
This is an off topic answer but if your open to it I'll throw it on the table. How about an LS series Chevy engine? We hardly ever use a 350 anymore, may two in the last three years, because the the LS2 and LS3 engines are just awesome engines. Out of the box they are in the 400hp range and with little modification can be in the 600hp range AND GET 25 MPG. This is less costly than a 350 that even approaches this power. They are durable, long lasting, very light, and have a huge aftermarket parts and support. The school kids in a video set one in a 57 Chevy and had it running in 45 minutes. You have to add a week to that time in our shop but it shows everything is available for a straight forward swap. What brought this reply to mind is when you stated there is still a little hot rod blood in your old veins.

Cool topic and hijack.
To the OP I don't have any input or answer to your question.

re. Blueprinting an engine.
It is MHO that blueprinting an engine is to coat one side of all mateing surfaces (head, block, bearing caps etc.,) w/a blue machinists dye (I don't recall the official name at this time) torque the mateing pieces, remove the pieces and check for any uneven and/or problems with perfect fitting. The lack of blue on the piece that wasn't coated indicates a problem with the surface at that point.
Ofcourse I could be wrong
Dave

I have seen enough LS engines in old cars to last me a lifetime already. I notice the ugly plastic cover at a car show and just walk on by. They are a bigger turn-off to me than the goofy looking amber turn lenses.

Just my opinion, you are entitled to yours.

Good answers, folks! I'm glad to see a few people actually understand precision engine building. The term "blueprint" has been hijacked by places that barely meet OEM standards in a lot of situations.

My precision engine jobs start out with a line bore and a very slight block decking job to assure everything else that gets done such as cylinder boring is exactly square. Then once all the connecting rods are reconditioned to exactly the same center-to-center length there might need to be another decking job to get the right deck clearance. All bearing clearances EXACTLY the same, even if individual crankshaft journals have to be polished to slightly different diameters, all reciprocating parts weight matched to 1/10 gram, then spin-balanced, camshaft degreed, and a huge number of other precise buildup operations. Most clearances will be wider on a brand new race engine than the ones on a 100,000 mile street engine. It's designed to go very fast for a very short time- - - - -who cares if it rattles like two skeletons copulating on a tin roof, or uses a little oil?

Then, after 1,000 laps or so around a 1/2 mile asphalt track, or about 800 on dirt- - - -do it all over again! Doing race engine stuff on a street engine would be horrendously expensive, and totally unnecessary!
Jerry

FWIW, I had my 216 Balanced and Blueprinted when I restored my truck, the guy that did the work pretty much explained the procedure as Jason did above. Maybe it wasn't necessary, but after 12 years it still runs like a sewing machine. Glad I had it done, I think the money was well spent.

yeah, my 216 only lasted 35 years or so without being blueprinted.

LOL...yeah, I've had a number of long-lasting engines built with factory specs. Apparently, not all OE engineers are stupid.
I understand the desire for close-tolerance work in a racing situation, and the theme still seems to be that some sort of "blueprint", or guidelines, are followed. But I think that's a very small fraction of rebuilt engines.

cm

cm

Well, as long as you use the engine in the manner the factory specs were created for you will be fine. It's when you try to use the stock specs and double or triple the factory HP that you will have problems. That's when a truly blueprinted engine becomes a worthy investment if not a necessity.

Just my 2cents on the crate engine. Long story short I wound up going with a base 290hp GM 350, from GM Performance. I found another engine I liked better, but went with the GM motor because of the warranty. I bought the motor from Jegs, and I put it in a 60 vette. As soon as I fired it up, it was out of balance. I went thru everything in the bell housing, believing that it couldn't possibly be the motor. Again long story short, it was the motor. The crank was out some, but the pistons are absolute junk, out of balance, and the skirts are flared out bigger than the bores, as much as .008. The piston scuff had already started to score the crank. I live near San Diego, and I first started going round to get help with this thing from, GM Performance, GM customer service(no phone numbers or e-mail, a written letter is only recourse), and the regional manager, were absolutely no help. I tried all of the GM dealers in San Diego County, no help. The dealerships are independent, and obviously GM has no power over the service dept. None of them would even begin to talk about repairing it, even before they knew what it was in. I am sure others will have stories of just the opposite, but this is my side. The low horse power motors are built in Mexico, they have a bad track record. There only good for 5300 rpm, and mine is a real gas hog. Don't buy because of the warranty, good chance it won't do you any good without a battle. There are a lot of them in a lot of various vehicles out there, but some time your not that lucky. If I had to do it over again, I would keep searching for a very good(someone who can make a true bore, not common out here), reliable engine machine shop, and build what you want form scratch. Less headache, and you know what you have inside in the end. The more expensive GM motors I believe are made in the states, and have a better record. As far as the warranty, I think your better off trying to get the guy down the street to fix it, than some large corporate entity. Good luck.

Read the warranty before you buy. Most crate motors need to be shipped back ON YOUR DIME for repair. If they don't agree to fix it (deny your claim) then you get to pay to get it back. HUGE PITA.

Even if you did your research you can always get a dud motor.

Unless it was an exotic super high HP motor I'd never pay for a crate engine. Cheaper to do it yourself. Plus as many have said you are the ultimate QA inspector. Not some guy on the line at 3:30 on a Friday thinking about getting drunk rather than your motor.

True, but as he said, he's in no shape to do it himself. I didn't do a crate motor, but I had mine done by a professional, and I'm very happy with the results. Different strokes for different folks. Here at Stovebolt we don't judge anybody for the choices they make.

The gm engine warranty is void also if you do a cam swap or any other internal performance mods. The gm base 350 with 290hp is about $1800 or less from jegs and summit and they ship for free. Installation needs to be done at a dealership or a certified mechanic. There's a lot of crates for sale that are turn key. Best of luck to you. I think the base 350 is plenty for a cruiser.

I had a repair shop for 20 years and I found that the GM warranty process was easier than the process for other engine builders. It is spelled out that any modifications or changes to a new engine will void the warranty, and it makes sense. The documentation for all of the add on parts(invoices) and documentation of the mileage at install are key points. I have had instances where a vehicle would come back with a engine that had failed. Of coarse the people just say it died, must be a bad engine. I always put little heat tabs on the frost plugs on the side of the engine and rear of the engine. If the engine was ever over 240 the center would melt out of the tab. While a warranty claim is difficult with proper documentation it can be taken care of. The issue of having it installed by a dealership or certified mechanic can be a non issue as long as you have all the documentation for the add on parts used, dates, mileage and also records for maintenance after the installation(date and mileage for oil and filter changes ect). I'm sure some have horror stories of not getting any warranty because of different reasons but in my experience if something really failed because of an issue with the motor I always got reimbursed. I know that Jerry (Hotrod Lincoln) does some field inspection work for warranty companies, maybe he can chime in with some words of wisdom.

I've worked for about six years as an independent contractor inspector for several extended warranty companies. They like the fact that an old retired geezer with 50+ years of experience as a line mechanic and 22 active ASE certifications is available to travel around the southeastern USA on short notice and verify claims. It's interesting work, and fairly profitable.

Some warranty outfits are fair and reasonable, and others are obviously out to collect premiums and nitpick claims to avoid paying any more than absolutely necessary. When a keyboard jockey in a cubicle with a canned script to read starts telling me how to do my job, things get testy in a hurry. It's obvious when I'm talking to an adjuster who has some shop experience, and the inspection report usually gets accomplished quickly. Some rude, obnoxious jerk from Noo Yawk, Noo Joisey, Chicago, Detroit, etc. is going to have a really bad day! Closing the hunting season on those guys in 1865 was a mistake!

Yes, overheating is a real issue, and if those heat indicator tabs are missing, it's pretty much a given that the claim is going to be disallowed. Other concerns are "Did the operator try to protect the vehicle?" Somebody who drives one until it won't move another yard while listening to a rod knock isn't trying to minimize damage, and a good inspector can tell when that has happened, in most cases. For instance, I inspected a job recently where the engine was still running (with a big hole in the block) when the guy drove the car into the shop complaining about the noise!

Bottom line- - - -when an item under warranty starts giving trouble, STOP DRIVING AND CONTACT THE SHOP THAT INSTALLED IT! If you happen to be the installer, make sure you jump through the hoops the seller presents, with a minimum of controversy if at all possible. If they send somebody like me to investigate the claim, remember that I don't have a dog in the fight- - - -I'm there to try to verify what went wrong, and find out why if possible. Then I make my report to the folks with money in their pockets. Once that's done, I'm out of the loop. Giving an inspector a ration of grief is a surefire way to get a really bad report to the adjuster!

About 80% of the assignments I get are legitimate claims, and the warranty folks pay up pretty promptly. However, I do see some outright fraud, and/or people too dumb to be driving a skateboard, let alone a car! It's interesting!
Jerry

What he said!

What kind of bikes do you build?