The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Stovebolts can be really annoying!

Sorry Y'all, I have to vent.

We're trying to start our recently swapped 55' 235 in our 49' 3600. The engine was purchased used from a nice bloke who had a video of the engine recently running before he swapped it out for a 350.

It won't start!

-We have spark
-We have enough fuel (squirt from carb with throttle opening) Tired starting fluid too.
-We have compression (not sure how much yet)
-I've physically checked timing. On TDC, valves are closed, distributor is pointing at number 1.
-Firing order is correct
-It's a 6V system. Tried cranking w/ 12V on starter only.
-Tried to tow start. It was back firing and the intake/exhaust were smoking.
-Tore down the carburetor which looked recently rebuilt. All check balls were free and everything seemed in order.
-Did I mention we checked timing!

I'm pretty confident the engine is mechanically sound but will be checking compression and valve lash. At this point I'm convinced it's a fueling issue with the Rochester... who knows! I'll probably pull off the exhaust to rule out back pressure issues.

We do get occasional "catches" with an initial squirt of starting fluid but then it just cranks. After attempting the tow start it would crank and just barley try to stay running with continued cranking and throttle manipulation.

So annoyed!! Although I do feel slightly better after getting this off my chest

Thanks for listening

Where do you have spark, coil or sparkplug wires.

If it was back firing from the intake or carb your 180 of on the distributor if it was on the exhaust I believe you have the cables either crossed or 1 rotation on the cap off.

You could have the engine flooded and the spark plugs fouled. I would pull the plugs, oil the cylinders good and put in a new set of spark plugs.

Is your firing order: 1-5-3-6-2-4 (clockwise wiring order), assuming you have #1 on the compression stroke when the marker on the flywheel is near the pointer on the clutch housing.

Watch the #6 valves as you turn the engine over by hand. The last valve in line is exhaust. Watch it open, then start closing. Just as the next (#6 intake) valve begins to move, look at the distributor rotor. It should be pointing at the #1 plug wire. If not, use whatever cap terminal it's pointing toward as #1, and wire the rest clockwise, 5-3-6-2-4. After that, the engine will start.
Jerry

- Wirewizards: Have spark on #1 sparkplug while grounding it removed. Haven't tested the rest.

- Backfire is out the exhaust when towing. Timing mark on the flywheel matches TDC of the piston and the valves are closed on #1.

- Don stocker: This has been a several week attempt trying variations of timing advance and retard. Flooding it and running it dry. Still not sure exactly what the compression is. Checking comp is on the list. I'll oil the rings if needed. Was hoping the tow would get me compression.

- tcelderman: Firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. Just checked again.

- Hotrod Lincoln: I haven't tried one tooth off retard or advance. I'll give it a shot. My timing has been based on; finding the flywheel timing mark "beebee", feeling for piston with a wire through the plug hole (compression confirmed with cranking - finger over hole), checking rockers for tension on #1 valves. Then set distributor to point at #1. I was able to crank the engine by hand while it was out of the truck but haven't found a method for doing so while installed. I've been using a remote starter to bump it over.

I appreciate the input guys. These old engines seem to need voodoo to get them started. I'm a BMW mechanic, no joke! This old stovebolt has had me scratching my head. These days I'm used to troubleshooting direct injection and variable valve lift systems. Who would have thought I'd have trouble with suck-squeeze-bang-blow!?

Check valve adjustment and move wires one rotation forward to see if it gets better or one backwards and report here the results.

Not sure if you have checked this or not, but I was trying to start an old welder a while back. Would some times spit, backfire then just crank with no response.

The owner had installed new points, cap, rotor, plugs and wires.

Found I had no spark. Adjusted points, would get a spark or two, then nothing.

I finally took the new point set out, and they were tight enough that they would not close with the spring pressure to pull them shut.

I found the old points and they worked freely. Filed them to clean them up and got the welder started.

I think I read that in a Chevrolet Engine Rebuild manual.
Now I know why they invented mufflers.

If the engine won't turn with the fan blades with the spark plugs removed, put the transmission in high gear and roll the truck forward a little at a time. It's very easy to mistake "overlap" between exhaust and intake for the top of the compression stroke. Since a stovebolt cam has virtually no overlap, watching the #6 valves in operation will assure you that the distributor is not timed to fire #6 instead of #1.
Jerry

Okay Jerry, I bumped it until the #6 intake just started to move and checked my ignition timing. The rotor had passed #1 and on its way to #5. The timing mark on the flywheel was not in the window (this is a 216 flywheel on a 235, does that matter?). I retimed the distributor to #1 and gave it a go.

It's about 45 deg F in WA today.
-Tried 1 squirt starting fluid. No throttle, no choke. It attempted to start but ended in cranking.
-Tried 1 throttle pump, no choke and had a few sputters.
-Tried full choke and had a few sputters.
-More stating fluid and tried WOT.
-Tried full advance and full retard adjustment. It seems more promising with full advance.
-Eventually it just cranks with an occasional sputter.
-Tried removing 1 plug to help with cranking speed, no luck.
-tried removing 2 neighboring plugs, no luck.

I think we're close! It's definitely flooded after all the attempts. I can see fuel pooled up in the intake so I propped open the throttle, pulled the plugs and cranked it a bit. We'll let it dry out and try again.

Is there a technique y'all use on your 235's for starting?
-1 throttle pump, maybe 2 before starting?
-Choke, no choke (at full choke the carb is setup to slightly open the throttle plate, I checked that)

You need to put some oil in the cylinder so your rings can seal or your not going to get it running. I'd also get some new spark plugs or at a minimum have yours cleaned in a blast cabinet. Then before you try it throw the starting fluid as far as you can. If your carburetor is working right you should be able to see a good spray of gas in the throat of the carburetor. A few good pumps of the carb should be plenty of gas to get it running. I would use a matchbook to clean the points off and then recheck the gap. And last, make sure your battery has a full charge before you try to start it.

Thanks don stocker, you motivated me to finally check compression. 1-4 ~130PSI, 5 125psi, 6 120psi. That should be plenty, whew!

When I pump the throttle, I see a squirt of fuel head down the throat of the carb.

Points are clean, plugs have a little mileage gapped to .035. I have spark.

I keep the 6V battery on a tender. These 6 volts sure crank slow!

If we're motivated later tonight we might give it another tow attempt.

Defective condenser? Coil breaking down? Fouled spark plugs? Try timing it the old school way. It will get you close enough to start. Pull #1 plug and put your thumb over the hole tightly. Have someone bump the starter until your thumb gets pushed off the hole. Go slow and stop immediately when it happens. Pop the dist cap and see where the rotor is. Adjust the placement of the plug wires on the cap accordingly. Have your cranking buddy crank the engine while you hold the #1 plug wire close to a ground with a pair of insulated pliers (unless you like the jolt of electricity) and watch for a good blue spark. Fuel spark and compression it should start. Best of luck.

Just adjusted spark timing again.

-Turned engine over feeling #1 piston come up with a wire. At TDC the wire stops moving. Adjusted distributor to point at #1.

-Confirmed compression stroke by cranking again and watching the rotor point to #1, plug out, feeling for compression with finger over hole to confirm I'm on the right cycle - OK.

-Did wire test again while watching the rotor. The piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke as the piston can be felt coming up to TDC while remote cranking.

-Confirmed spark at plug by watching the spark happen with plug removed.

-Crank, crank, crank... nothing

I'm done for today

If the points and coil are good. If the carburetor is good. And if the timing is close. Then set the valves a bit loose. The clacking won't hurt a thing. Then do a compression test. All cylinders should be close to the same, and(this will get me in trouble) above 80 psi. Then try to start. 10 seconds on the starter with 12 volts won't hurt. If it tries to start, then you can play with the timing. If you get nothing, then check the firing order. As Tcleaderman pointed out, 1,5,3,6,2,4 and that is clockwise looking at the top of the dizzy. A 235 even with a 216 flywheel with the points set to just open at the BB will either be right, or set on #6. Not too hard to fix. Clamp the bolt down on the "Octane Adjuster". Use the clamp screw on the vacuum advance clamp to change the timing. If all of that does not help, change the condenser and look at the wire to the points. I have found a cracked plastic insulator with the wire on one end and the points, condenser on the other end grounded to the housing. Sometimes a spark and some times not. No "O" ring in the groove on the dizzy. It won't help keep oil in the engine, and it won't help the dizzy ground to the block. Common to use the choke on new starts. Also common to forget to close the vacuum port to the wipers. They can be tested at another time. So cap that port on the manifold. You can test the vacuum advance while it is on the truck. Remove the line at the carb. And apply suction to the line. It should hold. If it leaks, then you have a bad line or a bad vacuum advance. It won't matter at idle speed, but needs to be addressed for break in. One thing at a time. Don't get in a hurry. Just do one thing at a time. test and go to the next thing. It will get better. It will.

Also, just because it is 6 volt does not mean it should turn over slow. Makes sure the battery cables are big enough to handle the load. At least 00 size.

The typical cables you get off the shelf are usually 4 gauge and just won't do the job.

If the battery is good and the cables are big enough and it still cranks slow, may need to check the starter. But is should spin over well.

Sounds like timing to me. BUT,stranger things have happened. When I installed an H.E.I. system to my 261,it wouldn't start,either.(Ran GREAT when parked)! After about two weeks of frustration,I found that my carburetor float needed adjustment,Then it would only start and run after the carb. was primed. I replaced the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump,and the fuel pump,(hardly a dribble,at the carb.)I also installed a filter between the tank and pump,and another at the carb. It ran,but not like it should,after that.(sluggish acceleration,and sputtered out the exhaust-No backfire). Then I replaced the carb,because i found the base was warped,causing a vacuum leak. After a month of chasing a dozen "gremlins",It finally runs better than ever,thanks to the HEI. Just take one thing at a time,like these GREAT folks suggest,and you'll be up-and-running in no time!

Those old guys knew what they were about.

Sorry for your troubles, but you are in the right place to get it sorted out.

Feel free to share photo links or video links if you think that will help. There are some knowledgeable people here that would love to help you get going.

-W

A '55 235 would have been all 12V. Did you account for that?

Not necessarily, '55 First are 6 volt. 12 volt didn't come in until the Second body came out. However, from some of the other posts I have seen from the op, it sounds like it might be from a Second.
In that case, you aren't running a ballast resistor/internal resistor coil are you? That might account for the issue if you are trying to run the engine on 6 volt.

I think he has a 55-2nd 235 because in one post he referred to a Jim Carter short shaft water pump. That would have been used on a 55-2nd and newer block.

However, I do not see a former post with an Engine Serial Number.

I saw that post, too. That's what got me thinking that perhaps if the engine still has the ballast resistor on it or a 12 volt coil, that might be the problem. From what I've read in this thread so far, it sounds like he is trying to run the engine on 6 volt.

you say you have spark, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe it to be sparking at the correct time. Just having the rotor pointing in the general direction of #1 cylinder isn't really adequate. First of all you are using the front cylinder as #1 correct? If you get #1 coming up on the compression stroke, turn the engine clockwise looking at it from the front. Watch the flywheel for the BB and stop exactly on the pointer. Remove the distributor cap, and make sure it is pointing in the general direction of the contact that is leading to #1 cylinder. loosen the flathead screw securing the distributor from turning just enough to allow the distributor to turn, not all sloppy, just enough to let it turn with enough friction to keep it where you let it go. Remove the distributor cap, turn the distributor clockwise till the points open and then close again. Replace the distributor cap. Put a plug in the #1 wire, ground it so it will spark, then turn on the ignition and slowly turn the distributor counter clockwise until you JUST get spark. Turn the ignition off and nail everything down, It should be nearly dead on. If it still doesn't run, it isn't timing.

IT'S ALIVE!!

I swapped in the original 235 distributor that came with the new engine and viola!

After playing around with the 216 distributor and being positive that the timing was correct (or that I had tried every variation of spark near,on,after TDC) I was able to get it to fire a couple times but it would backfire through the carb. This setup is newer and worked on the 216 very well. The wires are all a nice neat length so I preferred it.

Last night I decided to pull out the distributor from the 216 and compare it to the unit from the 235. Other than being clocked slightly different for the timing adjustment it appeared to be identical. I swapped the condenser from the 6V system and used the distributor and wires from that setup. IT WORKED!

Maybe there was an issue with the wires, cap, rotor, that I was not finding... who knows!

So Happy :-)

You guys are all very helpful, full of knowledge and diligent in your quest to remedy my problem...

*** THANK YOU to a superb community. Happy Holidays! ***

James

Glad it is running

HOLIDAY CHEER!! WE LOVE IT!! CONGRATULATIONS!!

I would also check all the wireing and make sure the Ballast resister is good . You can do a lot of checking with a multi-meter as far as electrical.