The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Starter question

Did a no-fuel starter test after I got everything hooked up. Sometimes the starter spins without engaging. Then sometimes you stomp and it grabs and turns over really nicely.

Is there a quick remedy to try before I start inspecting flywheel teeth or assuming starter rebuild? A brief thumbing through my shop manual didn't give me anything. Something I could lube perhaps?

12V system on a late 235 in a 51 pickup.

the starter engaging with the flywheel is a mechanical operation, check the linkage for smooth and full movement, and the bits inside the starter that push the gear in to engage the flywheel - see cutaway picture here

Bill

Hy JW51, are all the components twelve volt compatible? The starter should not attempt to turn until the starter drive teeth are engaged with the flywheel teeth. You could have worn pieces in the mechanism which moves the starter drive into contact with the flywheel teeth, hope that helps.

What that means is a 12V starter must be used with a 12V toothed flywheel. If you are trying to use your original starter on a later engine with the 12V flywheel it isn't going to work.

It was converted to a 235 / 12v in the distant past. One might assume the starter is right with the flywheel but who knows? Is there a way to tell?

It works great on some stomps. My guess is that it's sticking intermittently and the gear is not making it all the way to the flywheel. I wondered about linkage, and will study that closer (need a partner), but if it was a linkage issue, why would I hear it spin?

I think that the one way clutch in the starter drive may be bad. That would allow it to spin like that.

Video

The sound isn't great, but if you turn it way up you should hear what I'm describing.

The kids were excited. First real action since it has sat motionless and dead in my garage for months.

Hy JW51, as truckernix said your starter drive could be on its way out, I would pull the starter out and inspect everything and rebuild the starter. While you have the starter out check and count your flywheel teeth. If you still have the tag on your starter is the background colour red or black?

Quiet as that one is, I vote the starter Bendix is passing away. No screech of teeth not meshing. And the speed of the turn over with out a run out when released, Sounds like 12 Volt starter in a 12 Volt truck. Easy to rebuild and the parts are not too expensive.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=951195&cc=1326091
This the part that is going away.

Operate it from under the hood with a stick and see what is happening. I started my 235 many times this way while testing things/timing but I had the clip off. Your foot pushes the starter gear into mesh with the flywheel and also makes electrical contact. The mechanical portion (linkage and sliding gear) should be easy to detect why it's not driving flywheel. If you see it always slide into the flywheel gear and sometimes still does not spin flywheel then the little gear is loose on shaft or stripped. A partner would be easier....and a good flashlight! YOU HAVE TO watch what is happening at flywheel/starter mesh.

So....I'd have to pull the flywheel cover to see that...right?

I was hoping maybe just sitting for 30+ years and things were kind of sticky...and causing it not to slide into position. Would a dab of oil in a strategic spot help at all?

It's just weird why it works perfect on some stomps and not on others. Sounds like a fun weekend challenge!

So...if you're right....

Replace just this gadget or rebuild everything? (Either one would be breaking new ground for me).

Called my Napa and a reman starter is only $44?

Can that be right? Is it junk?

Sorry, you are right, can not see engagement just the linkage operation. Getting under and looking? maybe. NAPA usually has pretty good parts. It's a reman price. As I listen to it, starter sounds pretty healthy. So it seems like drive gear is not reaching the flywheel sometimes (as others have already said). If you get the NAPA, it may not come with foot switch, so take yours off before turning in core. If you are handy, you can replace the starter drive as posted above. Again sorry for the bad suggestion.

Starter motor is fairly easy to rebuild. If all you need are Brushes, Bushings and a Bendix drive. gets to be more money if the armature or field coils are bad. Still, at 44 dollars at NAPA, I would pull it off keep the switch and trade it in. NAPA stands behind their stuff and it is only 2 bolts and a cable. Almost too easy and too cheap not to. If you want to learn, a stomp starter is as easy as they come.

The Bendix drive alone was $9-$25 on rock auto. (Not sure why the wide variance).

The eager student in me wants to try the rebuild . The realist in me who has 4 kids and no time says the $44 starter is a no-brainer.

Either way, the cheapskate in me is going to tinker with it some more before I buy anything.

Thanks, all, for indulging my newbie questions.

Did a little testing with the aid of my son. Studied the linkage as he pressed stomp starter. Definitely works more often now than it doesn't. Have a little interference with the engine to frame ground strap and the spring. Thought I did it the way in Denny's pics but may need to study that closer. Not a big deal, just rubs a little bit when releasing. Sprayed some PB on the various joints.

Questions:
1) I am wondering now if I have some goofiness with the switch. Is it possible to get a weak closure of the circuit and get enough voltage to spin the motor, but not enough to push the drive into position?

2) There's a large hole on the housing with what appears to be a flat screw plugging it. Is this some sort of inspection hole or lube access?

Also played with some of the electrical stuff. Was surprised that both headlights and taillights work. 2 out of 3 cab marker lights. Horn works almost too well. Heater fan runs. No life at the dome light, turn signal or radio. But I'm shocked that so much works after sitting for 30+ years.

Sounds like you are waking her up nicely. Weak closure you speak of: The engagement of gear is 100% your foot and the mechanism operation, the spin is the electrical circuit. As said, taking it out is cake. Inspection before taking out ,as best you can, may expose the problem. Once on bench you can operate it, clamp it down, hook a battery pos to post, neg to case. They come apart and are very easy to work on (don't read cheap). It does seem like your starter motor is good but the bendix is bad. I'm cheap also but have learned when to fix and when to buy. You will have to decide if it's fix or buy because we can't see it from here. But do play with it or inspect, you may see something obvious. Sometimes on the bench it will seem OK because it's not under load or in operating position. In that case you can't learn what's wrong unless you are experienced and have testing equipment. Otherwise it's a core!

Good advice - maybe the following is worth a try/inspection?

If you "rebuild" the starter, you will most like replace the starter switch (that is actuated by the foot-starter linkage).

There is a slim possibility that your problem is caused by a worn contact in that starter switch. This can easily be inspected/replaced without removing the starter from the clutch housing. It might be worthwhile doing this inspection?

Is the switch specific to 6 or 12v?

That big screw on the case holds the field coil in place. It screws into a magnet inside the case, and the field coil is clamped between the case and a lip on the magnet. I would not try to move it unless you need to remove the field coil. The hard bits in reassembly are the brushes. I just use a skinny zip tie to hold them back against the springs when you slip the armature back into the case. Pulling the bushing from the end plate, I use a tap and a bolt. That gives you something to pull on when removing the bushing. That and the connections is about all there is. The Armature has what is called the commutator. That is the brass part the brushes sit on. You can clean that up with some sand paper Just like the book shows. The insulator cut back technique in the book is easy with a cheap set of jewelers files. Dirt, brushes and bushings are the usual bad actors. Bendix drive is common to.

No, you can see it's for 47-59...6 and 12. O'Reilly's has it as well as other FLAPS. Classic now says "out of stock".

NAPA also carries that part: ECH ST33

Note to everyone about every part. If you find a part close to your house, but more expensive than one farther, be sure to ask about price match before you drive farther. And, of course, when ordering online, do that math. Price + shipping (+ tax) vs Price at FLAPS + tax, no ship. Some online's are forced to also charge tax now. I also lean towards local because it's so easy and quick to check fit, buy and return.

I vote with bartomos, local if it has price even close. No wait, no return hassle and his kids get to stay in school. Just my 2 cents

bart A mos,

Here's what my worn down switch contacts looked like. Very frustrating trying to figure it out. Sometimes it'd make solid contact, sometimes not. Installing a new switch was most helpful in solving my intermittent starter problems.

I think I have the same problem as the OP and followed Steve's link to the RockAuto part. Then searched for the starter drive for my '57 235 and hell they list about 6 or 7 possible. Since they show OE numbers, I dove into the GM parts WIKI. Page 204 of the March 57 book Wiki lists the starter drive as 1927200 which goes to this one

Just saying one linked, might not be right for all, but that link did lead me to something to try for mine. :-)

And a true apology to bartamos I get them fingers all tangled up on the key board. And thanks for letting me know. Could have gone on for ever.

No problem Steve, just a technicality. If I had any brains, I would have PM'ed. Sorry.

No worry. I hope we have helped with the problem. The rest, well my feelers ain't hurt.

I think Steve H. hit the nail on the head. I would take the starter off and take it to a reliabl auto store and have the starter checked out . The Bendix could very well be getting too weak.

I don't know if you have had your concrns addresed yet, or if the problems that I had with my starter are releant, BUT, for the 1946, mounting the starter was critical - you might have to shim it for proper engagement. That was a learning experiance for me - never had heard of that before.