The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop HEI conversion

careful, that project may be next

Bill

Carl, put it in the trailer hitch topic so everyone can see it. Thats all I am trying to do here.. put together something that isn't available in the best way possible. If there is something wrong with it, others might have a solution.

I agree it's a hobby, but I spend all my waking hours on it and I have time to make products that others may like to have too. The only way a single person can make that work without an engineering team at his dispose, is to get ideas here. Right now we just need an HEI solution that uses the stock distributor. Why not take some of these forward thinking ideas above and incorporate them? You will be further ahead on your project.

You would think some of you work for Pertronix or somewhere the way you are trying soooo hard to keep me from getting to the bottom of this.

What Jerry said X2.
"So, get off your whiny butt and invent something!
Jerry"
I was trying to change the subject when I brought up your trailer hitch, as I am worried about you getting into serious trouble with the Equestrian Society for endlessly beating dead horses.
Carl

Thanks for the concern Carl. but I am doing great handling this myself. They might take a look at the floor shifter if they don't believe I WILL make a difference. But the hitch? Let me know if there is something wrong.

He Tasks Me! He Tasks ME! Khan

It's all pretty simple and has been said many different ways. Pertronix (Where Carl and Jerry work) is a goofy wanna-be HEI that was invented by someone who did not get off there butt while whining. HEI is bullet proof and works very well on V8's. Until someone invents C.O.P. for a 235, you are on your own and should probably stay with stock Dizzy. I'm thinking the performance from Pertronix is hype. Once you get a good enough spark, the gas/air mixture explodes and you run down the road. It's basically about reliability, 50% of pertronix users complain about reliability. 0% complaints from Stock I6 points or HEI V8 users. As long as they make match books with striker sandpaper on them, keep the points. OOps, they don't? ...never mind.
Disclaimer: All above is my opinion from reading and living and experience with various old vehicles for many years. I do not see a need to build/machine a HEI from other parts for a 6. I have never spun the tires with a 6 except at the car wash where the floor was wet. I have never used Pertronix. I am a non smoker and a heavy drinker. I am the forums most interesting man.

Why Yes! Yes you are!

This is why I don't feel like stuffing a ginormous, huge, rather large, slightly oversized honkin modified HEI distributor in mine. I even object to one that even came out of a V6 and looks like its been modified.

I want the stock distributor, easy in, easy out parts, I want to put the points back on the side of the road, and above all, I want it to look like it came on the engine. I don't care about better running. As long as it runs the same, but I DO care about longevity and not having to reach over the fender to do maintenance all the time. But the thing that would make me switch over to HEI the fastest is the ability to set the timing down to nth degree, and do what brokenhead says.. engine management where many parameters are controllable.

Since that doesn't exist right now, I think that could be a really fun project. Parts are on order, questions being asked. I am not the person to do this however, so I hope I can rely on you guys to fill in the gaps. Lotsa gaps!

Just get a few books on electronic fuel injection/engine management. And there is at least one person doing this very thing that contributes to this forum. There are several ways to get there from here, but all of them require some sort of signal, hall effect, optical, little magnets imbedded into something that turns in relation to the crankshaft and/or camshaft. If you are skeptical of optical, an industrial PLC uses optical coupling and as long as the counts are less than 20,000 per second it isn't considered high speed. The one kind of limiting factor is the ECM cost around $1500, you might be able to get away with a scavenged unit from the junkyard, that is something I haven't looked into. But this has already been done. And is being done in every new car built for probably the last 10 years.

The only argument for not going with optical came up on the Crane site where the reviewer was worried that if it gets dirty it wont sense correctly.

The mopar reluctor may work, IF I can slice it thinner so no modification to the points mounting plate is required.

15 years ago you got a 1950 truck? You still have not driven it? Is this true? If so, what is your "reluctance" to getting it running with stock dizzy. Get it going and super-tweak it later. You have to put a "Flux Capacitor" in it before you can get back to the future. You are just building an old truck (and doing a nice job.) Why are you trying to reinvent the distributor? "reaching over the fender all the time" is a myth in your mind. Wake up to reality and get the truck on the road. I say this in friendship, not judging you, you must not want to finish it for some reason. This kind of thinking and effort is for a Maserati. If your truck is on the road and you are driving it, disregard.

It's impossible to be an inventor and be unable to build and understand your own prototypes. It seems like you are wanting the forum experts to do all the technical figuring and then have someone build your/their ideas. How can that be rewarding?...and talk about fixing it? how would you know how to fix it out on the road? $1500 for a part? You can carry 10 entire stock dizzys with you for that.

I have one 53 1/2 ton that drives, and two 1950 farm trucks. The other two are 1/2 ton projects. One is the one on the website I have neglected for years now, the other is the one I am working on now. I have had these old trucks around most of my life. I have bought and sold many of them. I got plenty of time to work out a few modifications I have been wanting to do, and since they are done, I can think of only one last thing that would be beneficial, HEI but nothing out there fits the build. Not sure why everyone has this idea that HEI is a done deal already. If, in your mind it IS a done deal, then you have no interest in my progress! I can live with that if you can.

I have dealt with points systems all my life and I know exactly the maintenance required. I want to do away with all that if I can. Guess we will see! For me, it has nothing to do with making a profit on an idea, everything to do with learning things I don't know, and socializing with people with similar interests.

I write these posts so others can see the progress from idea to reality. It gives them a chance to suggest things to make it easier or better. If someone is paying all you guys to discourage me, please tell them its a waste of money, but I guess why on earth would you do that?

I will stop on this thread in the next month or so and begin a new one when all the parts are here and I can really get into it, and people can see a start to finish effort.

Just for fun, go to Floor Shifter Options in HiPo and read the 2nd post. Then, read every response from the beginning to the end of this one. This is amazing to me. Have we gotten so cynical in this country (and Canada) that we cant add words of encouragement for someone who just wants to forge out and do something worthwhile? Are we so used to holding on to our knowledge for fear of losing our influence that we just discourage everyone else who wants to know what you do? OMG!

So, I have this 261 and I have it on the frame all ready to drive. I have a fitting on my garage door for the hose to run the exhaust out, and I can start it anytime I want because I built my Start Kart with gauges, fuel delivery, battery, chargers, etc. I have what I need to really do this right. Why not use it? I am different I guess in that I just dont discern the difference between a Maserati and a 1950 Chevy Truck. You cant toss your beer cans in the back of a Miserati!

Was going by your signature and links. I understand your philosophy better now. I think I'm just jealous of your energy.
Stay thirsty my friend.

Bart, I am currently on the fence about Pertronix, due to an expensive episode caused by a defective (redundant) Chinese ignition which remained ON after removal of the key (on all night). Fried the Pertronix and the coil. BTW, I have divested all interest in stock and dividends with Pertronix in order to meet your strict standards of non-partisanship. I did not imagine the improved performance after installing the Pertronix, but I am leery of the lack of dependability. And yes, you are the internet's (not just this forum's) most interesting man. Me? I'm just thirsty all the time.

I have nothing against China except their parts, their policies, their form of government, their pollution and their hoarding of Panda Bears. Whatever you are running after the Pertronix fried, must be doing OK? Glad you have allegedly divested. Not my standards, was brought up by someone else so I suspected it was true. You got the name in 4 times in the last post though. Curious.

I said that I was divested from Pertronix. I did not say that I was not employed by Pertronix, Pertronix, Pertronix. (Sorry, its in the employee agreement.)
I am currently using points.
Carl

I have cleaned up two stock distributors and am waiting on the reluctors and pickups and ready to start figuring out how to make this happen. Looks interesting already! The idea is to make NO changes to the distributor itself. I think WE can do it.

PERTRONIX? where is my check?

DEVETRONIX, lazy butt.
Carl

I'm lost Deve, in the end what are you going to have installed in your distributor that hasn't been done already? Don

Distributor link, Deve, I gave you this link several months ago, the guy does this for a living, does it well and has it all figured out.

The only version of the stock distributor HEI that has been done already has a few issues I don't like, but I think can be fixed. It modifies the distributor permanently, destroying the lobes and removing the posts, cams, etc.

I want to make one that doesn't modify the distributor at all, rather uses the features inside. In the end, I want to be able to pull out the reluctor and pickup and install the points back in right on the side of the road.

While I am doing this, might as well learn about how to set the timing, etc, etc using a modern box. That may be beyond me, but I want to also remove the vac advance the way they are set up later. I would keep mine there for looks and for the possibility of having to run points again.

In looking at our stock dizzys this week, it appears it can be done, but I may have to modify the distributor cap to put a hole in the side for the wires to leave the body. Not sure yet.

SO it HAS been done, but it's never been done. Im sure you get it. Carl does! LOL

So you want to install a HEI module and pickup inside your original distributor with no modifications to it so the point system can be put back in. Other ignition systems are available but use different technology that the HEI ignition. If you want to control the ignition timing and advance electronically the system will need more electronics than a HEI ignition module. You will also need to install a way to change the fuel mixture and will also need to install an oxygen sensor to monitor the air/fuel mixture. Are all these things doable? If a person is going to go this far why try and cobble things together to mimic looking like a stock distributor with points in it? Or have the ability to put the set of points back in along side the road? Not trying to poo poo on the project or scope of it but maybe a step back and some fresh breaths would help. Don

Oh, some interesting reading in this link,
http://www.google.com/patents/US7165542

I don't know if they are doable. Thats what I am trying to find out. It sounds like an awful lot of fun not just learning the basics but putting them to good use on a very worthy, solid stovebolt. Thanks for the info in the link. This is what I need, and much more. In the end, I want it to look like its not there as much as humanly possible.

I am certainly not one of those know-it-alls. Most everything I start out doing, I finish to perfection, but not before a very long learning curve. Right now, everybody knows more about this subject than I do. How much more fun can a person have?

You certainly have a lot of sticktoitness Deve. I would probably have moved on to other things by now. But as long as you're having fun, who cares? I see working on these old trucks as entertainment anyway. I'd give you advice or knowledge on your quest but I don't know squat. Keep on rollin.

Dennis

I like to drive them. As long as you have at least one to drive, spend as much time as you want on anything on any of them.

It really is entertainment. I like to meet like minded people who feel that way. I have had the time and opportunity to make this particular truck one of a kind, and this is just in keeping with that. Waiting on parts.

And he is modest too... LOL John

I got the parts in today for my experiment. I have two very clean and fresh stock distributors to play with. The parts don't reveal anything I didn't expect, so that's good. The mopar reluctor will not just slip over the lobes, but that's good because if we cut them in and add two set screws, we can center it perfectly. About an 1/8th of the reluctor will need to be shaved off to shorten it so it doesn't interfere with the rotor will be necessary. But the good news is, the post for the points anchor doesn't interfere. This means we have everything we need to design a plate for the pickup that uses the features of the stock dizzy. I am not seeing anything that sticks out as a problem yet. The lobes are pretty much 5/8" as evidenced by putting a 5/8" long socket over the shaft. More later! Woohoo!

Post some pics as you go. I would like to see what you see and of course, what you do to workaround whatever comes up. I might not want to do what you do. But I do like to watch as you do it.
...That sounds like a bad country lyric....Oh well let us know what you are up to.

This is how I did mine. Not running yet, have to keep going out of state working. Jim
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123538

It says I dont have permission to view. I would love to see your setup. Explain what you are doing exactly. Are you going by some sort of FAQ?

Since I am new at all this, I am taking this one slow. I am starting off with the distributor. Throttle bodies will either be later, or not at all, depending on how far I want to go.

Step 1 is in keeping with my philosophy of NOT doing ANY modifications to the vintage parts. If its a stock part, it will remain in serviceable condition. I did this with my floor shifter, trailer hitch system, and this will be no different.

So what I am saying is, lets modify the new parts to fit the old distributor. Not whats easy, but what keeps stock parts in circulation longer. In this case, the reluctor can be modified to fit the stock distributor with a little precision grinding. The pickups can utilize the stock features to give it the adjustments necessary, both phase and distance, to make it work very efficiently.

I sure hope I am not wrong. In looking over the parts, this all seems doable, but what I do not know is the metallurgic makeup of the reluctor and how easy it is to drill it for set screws, grind lobes into the center, and shave off whatever is needed to make it fit below the rotor properly. If its some sort of metallurgic nightmare like some inductors (ferrite) consist of, I am screwed. More later.