The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Valve adjust on a 235

This new 235 seems to be missing on the first cylinder, that is to say when I pull the first plug wire it makes very little or no difference in the idle. So I decided to set the valves, like I have done many times on the old 216.
It seems to me that there is quite a bit of springyness in the pushrods. I really have to push down on the rocker ends to get any sort of gap at all, even on the valves I know to be closed. So I am wondering if I might have acquired a 235 with hydralic lifters. I don't have any experience with these.
I screwed out one of the rocker adjusters all the way and could see a hole in the middle of the pushrod end. But according to the numbers this is a 235 from a panel truck from 1953. The engine has had at least one thorough rebuilding. It has aluminum pistons and insert bearings. How do I know what kind of valves it has without pulling the side cover? (which doesn't leak!!!)
I did adjust the valves as if they were solids and the engine seemed to run better. The first cylinder still seems to have only the slightest effect on the idle.
Karl

Generally an engine with hydraulic lifters is quiet running, with no tap, tap sound. With solid lifters, it has a tap, tap sound while running. Sounds like it might be an engine with hydraulic lifters. Is it a low oil pressure engine? A panel truck from 1953 would have had a 216 engine. A sedan delivery (car based)van would have had a 235 engine.
Probably best to get the numbers off the block and post them. Someone here can then tell you what you have.

John

A truck engine from '53 could not have had hydraulic lifters. Post the casting numbers and we'll see what year engine you have.

You may not have a problem, these engines will run with a plug wire off.

" . . . according to the numbers this is a 235 from a panel truck from 1953." Neither Panel Truck in 1953 had a standard or optional 235. What are your numbers?

The 1953 1500 series Station Wagon and Sedan Delivery had a standard 216 engine. A mechanical lifter "regular 235" was available as an option on some models.

The Powerglide option was not available on a 1500 series vehicle, but a heavy duty manual three speed transmission was available on all cars/wagons.

The Powerglide and hydraulic lifter 235 was only available on 2100 and 2400 series cars in 1953.

Post the Engine Serial Number - it is pressed into the block in the ledge to the rear of where the distributor goes into the block. This might allow someone to ID your engine/transmission.

some of you guys really scare me with your knowledge at times! especially when it is obviously posted off the top of your head.

Chris

Interesting Tim, I would have figured the car based sedan delivery would have used the low oil pressure passenger car 235.....
John

I just purchased a 1935 high cab 1/2 ton . Motor has not run in a while. I'm hesitant to turn it over and start it. Should I take the chance and try starting it, or plan to rebuild. Where can I find pics t ons and rings? It's got the original 206 engine.

35truck, Best if you start a new thread vs. hiding your question under this one, you'll get better response.

I posted the engine numbers a while back and learned that they were not so easy to decipher. At least one source tries to tell me I have a 216 from 1950, which just can't be. Here are the numbers, no misprints: HAA 133972
Here is a picture of the motor. new motor
The head number is 3701887
It worked fine after my valve adjustment. But I am surprised by the springy resistance in the rockers/pushrods. Those rockers do not rock free through the motion of the set valve lash/gap.
Karl

Yes, I am putting this beautifully repainted motor back in that sloppy chassis. The truck has its character in being (somewhat) unrestored.

By the side cover it looks to be a 1954-55 engine..... They actually used that cover thru 1962, but the high mount water pump only thru 1955...

John

'H' is 1950, now get those cast numbers down by the pan in front of the fuel pump, can almost read them on your photo. Also the date code should be around back of starter. Most likely it's a 216 the cast number will tell for sure.

I believe the first powerglide (pass car) motors had this short side cover, still splash oiler.

It ain't gonna happen tonight - finding more numbers, it's pretty late here. The real question is if this motor can have hydralic lifters. What do hydralic lifters feel like? What can cause this springy resistance in the rockers even when the valves are closed?
On my 216 the inactive rockers had free play.
Can some distant PO have rebuilt the engine - whatever it was - with hydralic lifters?

My issue re. engine casting number is that if this was a powerglide car is would have had hydraulic lifters in 1950 and if memory serves it's a 235. With the valve closed push down on the rocker arm and you should feel some movement with hyd lifter, where solids do not.

Yes, the engine serial number indicates 1950 216. That number could have been punched into a later block.

The head indicates 1953 truck 235 (18 head bolts and 2 valve cover bolts). It could be mounted on any 53-55st block (which would use the high/exterior mounted water pump).

The block casting code would allow further identification (and/or further confusion).

In an earlier post about this engine, I think someone posted that it could be a Canadian engine, which offers further confusion?

It would helpful to have the:
(1) head date casting code, and the
(2) block date casting code, and the
(3) block casting code.

It does have 18 head bolts.

I forgot that the block casting code is (given in that other post):

3701946 - 1953 235 truck block - mechanical lifters

All "bets" are off if it is a Canadian block?

With the oil warm I would try adjusting them as hydraulics.
If after a few minutes (time for them to bleed down) you crank it over and it spins over to fast, like there is no compression, then you can assume you have solids.
When you say they are spongy I think you can also assume they are hydraulic lifters with air in them. Hydraulic lifters that are properly filled with oil will also feel solid.
You may want to read more about hydraulic lifters on MY BLOG.
On another note, not all blocks are drilled to supply oil needed for hydraulic lifters. Just because someone may have installed hydraulic lifters in this engine does not mean they will work.

Based on the funky curve of the draft tube to clear the side mid-engine motor mount, this motor came out of a car. If it originally came with Powerglide, it would have hydraulic lifters.
Carl

Do you have a pic of your stamped engine serial numbers.

235 Block casting 3701946 was used in 1953.

Passenger & Truck, all with head casting 3701877.

1954-55.1 truck also used head 3701877 with a different block.

1953 Passenger, Standard Transmission & Mechanical Cam.
Three different crankshafts were used,

3701894
3835501
3835311

Also in 1953,the Powerglide, hydraulic cam,
had a different block & head.

This was the beginning of the new crankshaft,
#3701488, drilled for lubrication,
and used on all 235's.

In 1954 Trucks began using the new crankshaft
in the 235 and also the 261.

I just returned home, saw all these newer posts. It's a little late to look up the number on the crankshaft, sorry.
Have we reached some sort of conclusion yet? It is still a little unclear to me. Does HAA mean 1950, or does 3701946 mean 1953? Do either of these numbers exclude hydralic lifters?
Does someone still want to see some other block numbers?

When adjusting for hydralic lifters, one follows the same procedure but tightens each rocker so that there is no gap at all? What about the spongy movement? One leaves no gap plus this amount of spongy movement.
I read up on your blog, Dave, but I will need to study it a bunch more before I start to understand hydralic lifters.
I sort of prefer the mechanical adjustment, it seems more straight-forward.
Karl

Well if it was a 1950 engine, hydraulic lifters or not it would be low oil pressure. 7-15 lbs.
Seems to me if I remember right you remove all play then tighten the adjustment 1-1 1/2 turns more to "load" the hydraulic lifters. Someone here will know for sure.

John

I adjusted the valves today as if they were hydraulic, and now I am fairly certain they are not. It hardly ran afterward. So I did it over again as solids, twice actually because it just feels different than the old 216, and the result didn't seem good enough. Now it is running fine, the muffler rusted out over the winter so it sounds rough.
My belief is still that I have a 235 from 1953. I do not understand what the HAA means...
Karl

HAA means 1950 car regular (216) engine (mechanical lifters) with standard transmission (if the engine is a USA engine).

That code could have been used/placed on a replacement engine (for correct titling in a location that used the Engine Serial Number for titling/registration).

The block casting code and block casting date are the best IDs for what it is.

Tim, wouldn't a 216 engine have the large valve side cover? His engine in the pictures appears to be a 1954-55 engine.....

Sounds like it is solid lifters though...... John

Karl, this is one of those questions that if you are not absolutely sure about what you have, remove the side cover and pay the $5 to get another side cover gasket and feel good that you know for sure. Right?

John,

Yes, you would be right about the side covers if it is a USA engine, unless it is a Canadian truck 216 exported to Europe/Scandinavia?

So now it is a half year later, and I just removed the rockers to remove the round imprints on the faces of the rockers. I put it all back together, tried to adjust it initially cold to get it started, but it will not fire.
I have two other 216s in the shop with mechanical lifters. When the rocker is free, the slop allows it to rest either against the pushrod or the valve. On the 235, there is constant tension against the rocker. I can press on the adjustment screw pretty heavily with a screwdriver and get a feeler between the rocker face and the valve, but that tension is always there.

I am entirely inexperienced regarding hydraulic lifters, but I fear this 235 has them. Most probably I will never understand hydraulics until I strip down one of these motors. I need an answer to one question - if there is this constant pressure against the rocker can I assume the lifters are hydraulic and adjust them so? One more question - if I adjust them as hydraulics and they are not can I damage the engine?

These lifters have me pulling my hair out. One year ago I had a fine running 216 with a cracked block. Now I have a fine looking 235 that doesn't leak and doesn't run either.

Karl

By the way, I pulled out a pushrod. It is solid.

Did you post your block casting code and date (not the Engine Serial Number, which can be changed)?

When you pulled out a push rod, did you check what kind of lifter you have.

Karl, if you can make the gap at the valve stem change by pushing down on the pushrod side of the rocker arm, it's almost a certainty that you're working with hydraulic lifters. The gap simply cannot change with solids. With both valves closed and the piston near the top of the compression stroke, apply some steady pressure on the pushrod end of the rocker with a long screwdriver or a pry bar. Within a minute or two, the gap at the valve should increase slowly until it bottoms out at about 2 MM or so. That is caused by the oil in the lifter being displaced and the lifter plunger bottoming out. It will refill after a couple of minutes of running time.

The best way to adjust the lifters is to get each cylinder to top dead center with the engine stopped, take the free play out of the rocker with the adjusting screw, and continue to tighten the adjusting screw 3/4-1 1/2 turns further to preload the lifter. Don't worry about forcing the valve off its seat- - - -the lifter will bleed down and allow the valve to close within a minute or two. Continue to adjust all 6 cylinders that way. A good way to determine when a cylinder is ready to adjust the valves is to align the distributor rotor with the spark plug tower in the cap for the cylinder you're about to adjust.
Jerry

Thanks Hotrod, I'll try that hydraulic adjustment tomorrow, it's late now.
Tim, I posted a bunch of numbers earlier, but no one seems to be able to decipher them yet. I don't believe the motor is from 1950. Maybe I missed the block casting number. I'll look into that tomorrow, too. After a long day of work

I have had good results adjusting Hyd lifters this way. Turn engine so #1 is TDC and both valves are closed. Adjust rockers until the push rod just stops turning with your fingers. Get both on #1. then look at all of the other valves. About 1/2 will be closed. Adjust them as well same way. Turn engine to #6 at TDC. The other valves will now be closed. Adjust them the same way. Start it. If it clacks a bit do not worry, it will get better in a bit. When it is fully warmed up and that will take a bit of time Do it all over again, but, turn 1/4 turn after the push rod stops. Should be OK. All the Hyd lifters I have tried to adjust with a full turn seem to be too tight. This seems to work for me. It should idle real smooth and be very quite when you are done. If there are other ways to do this, let us know. I still turn the idle way down and adjust while running but that takes some time and you need to have a very loose but stable pair of hands. I don't know how long I can still do it but it does tell you right quick if you go too far, idle gets lumpy fast. Some of these engines will idle as slow as 150 RPM. Amazing really. As far as what engine you have? There are folks on here that know way better than I do.

There is no risk adjusting a solid as an hydraulic. I would start by only tightening it about a 1/4 turn after the slack is removed.
If the oil is cold it will take a while before the lifter will bleed down enough to close the valves completely and regain compression.
FYI, Understanding the 235 hydraulic lifter.

After a long session of the old "by guess and by golly" much aided by the good advice from above I finally woke up the 235 last night. In my case, it turns out that there is a critical difference between the point when the free play in the rocker is removed and the point when one can no longer rotate the pushrod.

So, the first few frustrating times when I had adjusted that screw till the pushrods would not rotate, and then added another 1/4 turn, the motor was stone dead. I tried the same adjustment a secod time. Still dead. Then I discovered I had never replaced the accelerator pump linkarm back a month ago, so I had to dig that out of the trash. During which time I thought of backing those rockers way off and just removing the free play.

In hindsight it seems crystal-clear. It started right up after that, although it ran rough. Hopefully it was just cold, but it was late so I called it a success and went to bed.
When I get the time again I'll start with a little more exact adjustment and then let it warm up good and fine tune.

I hope I haven't damaged anything by all that turning over of the engine with extremely compressed valve settings.

Karl

By the way, Tim, I posted the block casting number a while back in another thread. You copied it to this thread and concluded that this motor began its life as a mechanical lifter engine in 1953. Fine by me, the engine has obviously been reworked a few times, someone must have converted it to hydraulic lifters. I have no idea how complicated that process is, but it sure isn't the same motor to adjust as the other mechanically lifted motors I have in the garage.
The engine's serial number doesn't seem to make any sense.

Karl, Adjusting hydraulic lifters by rotating the pushrod only works if your lifter is pumped up with oil, unless you have the side cover off and can visually see the lifter cup start to rotate as you tighten down the rocker while spinning the pushrod. Otherwise if there is no oil in the lifter or the lifter has bled down, you will bottom out the plunger of the hydraulic lifter which you don't want to do, then you add another 1/4 turn then guess what? You engine will not start because you have removed all the hydraulic action of the lifter. Either that has happened or I'm betting if you have a solid lifter and you must set it up with clearance between the rocker and valve or else it will not run either. Pull all the pushrods and check them for straightness, then you will be able to see what lifter you have, it will be obvious. In my opinion you will bend those long rods before you hurt anything else. My .02
Steve

The 235 seems to be running like it should now. It has run till warmed up, I've gotten to the point where I can adjust the noisy rockers with the engine running, they are all pretty quiet and the engine idles nicely. I wish I knew more about the history about what has been done to this motor, but it seems that it has been reworked pretty heavily a time or two. The rockers were pretty worn on their faces and the rocker shaft looks worn, so I would guess this engine has gone a few miles. If I were closer to the native market I would change a few more parts, but instead I'll just drive it until I get the original 216 ready to put back in.
Thanks for the patience in dealing with this hydraulic greenhorn, guys.

Karl

Did you end up adjusting them as hydraulic or solids?

Well, hydraulic, and it seems ok. I expect it would be most illuminating to see how an experienced hand would go at the same process.