I have a 350 that I swapped into my 1958 Viking 60. I obtained a GM 505 bellhousing so I could retain the bellhousing motor mounts. I'm using a Novak ring to firmly mate the SM420 to the larger opening in the 505.
The starter I'm using is a NAPA unit that is supposed to fit a 1970 Chevy truck (the bellhousing was supposedly used on 68-72 trucks) I'm using the 3 bellhousing mount points for the starter instead of a block mount variety.
Here is the flywheel being used, a 168tooth variety.
The starter does its job without strain but it has difficulty disengaging. Enough to where it feels like I'm causing damage. Most of the 'pain' I feel is on disengagement rather than engaging or during cranking.
Is there any possibility of shimming on these 3-hole-bellhousing-mount starters? I'm not really sure how shimming would help, it'd just prevent the gears from meshing as deeply? Shimming wouldn't pull the gear towards/away from the outside of the flywheel like it would on a block-mount.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I don't think I have a mismatch of components but it's hard to know with so many things changed at one time. I'll try and take a video to capture the symptom later today and post back.
Was the selinoid on the starter when you got it? I wonder if the spring behind the plunger is missing or weak. Try the starter on the bench. It should snap back real quick when you release the current.
They say money can't buy happiness. It can buy old Chevy trucks though. Same thing. 1972 Chevy c10 Cheyenne Super In the Gallery Forum
Are you using generic bolts to mount the starter to the bellhousing or so you have the oem type that have a should on the bolt to properly locate the starter in the opening?
The starter was 'new'...but it hasn't been proven. It is possible the spring is weak.
As for bolts, they are not OEM/application specific...I think I just got some grade8 bolts from Ace. But if the shoulder of the bolt (or lack of one) is helping with alignment, that could very well be my problem! I'll see if I can track down some bellhousing starter bolts.
I've seen a lot in my life time which includes..... yes, sometimes there was a shim used to keep the starter from going so deep. That shim can be bought at the local Advance Auto, Napa and others. If that is what you need.
I have also seen new starters come with a small rod in the box. I think the short rod was 1/8" and was used to stick up in the flywheel to make sure the starter was not to "deep".
Not sure if any of this will help in your case but if its slow to disengage it could be because the starter drive is to deep in the flywheel. This is just information and hoping it may help.
Hi Alvin...a shim can't be too expensive to try and the starter is pretty easy to get to from underneath (no headers or exhaust in the way) so hopefully I can try that soon. Maybe it is a depth problem and that's all there is to it!
My searching so-far hasn't yielded any special starter bellhousing bolts but I'll look s'more.
In any case, I appreciate the quick response so far and I'll report back after I try some of this out.
The bolts with the shoulder are for the starter that mounts to the engine block. They are vertical. If you are mounting the starter to the bell housing with 3 horosontal bolts, the standard hardware bolts will work.
They say money can't buy happiness. It can buy old Chevy trucks though. Same thing. 1972 Chevy c10 Cheyenne Super In the Gallery Forum
Thanks Wrench! I crawled under there today for a bit and came to the same conclusion after a closer look. There isn't much of any slop due to bolts or the holes in the starter/bellhousing.
My dad had another suggestion, that maybe the new switch I installed was latching and taking longer to release power to the solenoid. Per his suggestion, I hooked a voltmeter up to the 'S' terminal and watched as I cranked. It doesn't seem to be the culprit as voltage drops off very soon after the button is released and there is no voltage while the engine twirls the starter gear.
I still need to bench test the unit; hopefully can get to that in the coming days.
One thing to note, I'm not sure if it could affect things: the engine hadn't been started in over a year so after I got fresh oil put in it, I spun it with the starter for a few pulses without any plugs in it. Without compression, the tach was showing nearly 1000RPM. I did maybe 5 pulses of 3 seconds each. Nothing seemed to be stressed during the process, I figured I was doing it a favor. Does anyone think these antics may have stressed the spring/bendix assembly? Hopefully I can inspect that better once the starter is on the bench.
All said, I'm still hoping it's not an alignment issue...I just don't see how to shim this older style mount. Alvin had mentioned using shims on this style before but I could not for the life of me track any down last night. Plenty of shims for straight/offset block mount starters but none for the bellhousing mount style.
Just a wild shot here.... does it have an alternator now? And this may be way out in left field.
But if it now has an alternator perhaps it is wired in such a way that it is providing power to the S terminal of the starter once the engine starts.
Otherwise I would lean towards the starter solenoid itself sticking. I have had that happen on a couple of occasions and replaced the starter solenoid to fix the problem.
It still seems to me like the gear on the starter drive is hanging up on the ring gear. Maybe pull the starter and look at the teeth on both the ring gear and the starter drive and see if it looks like its been binding up. You could also take the solenoid off the starter and install it, then you can engage the starter drive into the ring gear and see if its hanging up.
Some random thoughts: All the suggestions so far are good ones. I would try just a bit of oil on the bendix drive and shaft. I would also try a bit of shim stock between the starter and bell housing at the outboard side of the starter. Just enough to tip the starter away from the flywheel. If the shim stock makes a difference then jut trim it and leave it in place.
I would find out whether it's electrical or mechanical to narrow the search. First, have ONLY the battery cable on the starter and run two jumper wires---one from the battery cable to the + side of the coil (or to the "BAT" terminal on an HEI. Have the second jumper on the "S" terminal of the solenoid (one closest to the block) and touch it to the battery cable to start the engine. Start and then pull the jumper from the coil or HEI to kill. If it doesn't hang it's in the electrical system and if it does it's mechanical. You cannot move a bellhousing mount starter shallower or deeper as far as tooth mesh is concerned. The machined snout fits the hole in the bellhousing exactly so all that can be done is to shim the starter out from bellhousing. The bolts simply hold the starter to the bellhousing, the machined snout locates it.
Hey all, I wanted to post an update from the weekend. Bench testing seemed to show a very strong solenoid action...snaps out and in with authority.
The teeth on the flywheel and starter are not marred (probably from minimal use thus far) but I can get an idea of depth of engagement based on where the starter gear is shiny. I'll post a few pictures later today.
I tried placing shims in an effort to change the mesh. I've currently got 3/32 worth on the bolt that is furthest from the flywheel. I don't really like this, though, as it seems like it'd have to stress the mounting ears of the starter with mismatched shimming. But this did seem to help. It catches every few times rather than all the time.
What I'll also try is shimming the starter straight out; I'd prefer this method if it works. It's all pretty easy to try, just have to steal the time to do it!
There were a couple prior questions I can answer: Do I have the inspection cover in place? I do...but it is an aftermarket piece...perhaps of thinner gauge than the stock one would have been! I'm pretty confident in the electrical being ok, especially after bench testing the solenoid.
The clutch shield in the post from Mike B. is as big as the bell housing. Just a flat bit of sheet metal, about 1/8 inch thick. That will make a difference if it is in place. And it might be the problem if it is not. It only matters if you are using the truck style bell housing. The later car type has the starter bolted to the block. Others may be more familiar with the V-8 I hope some add their thoughts.
