The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 12v starter solenoid on a 6v starter

so, the foot pedal part of my starter died, and i wanted to replace that with a modern starter solenoid to compliment the 12v system swap i have previously done. it turns out that there really is no bolt on way to do this.
3 days of searching produced a lot of information about swapping over to old 12v systems, but nothing about what i had my heart set on doing, so i made my own frankenstarter.

so...if you happen to have a spare starter lying around that you dont mind risking the very soul of, then you might find the tutorial i wrote about my adventures interesting.

the link is here:

http://49chev6400.webs.com/apps/blog/

depending on when you read this,you may need to scroll down a while to get to it, as my blog doesnt really allow me separate my entries.

for a preview, this is the text i wrote:

this is my first frankenstein tutorial for my truck.......sometimes, you simply cant have your cake and eat it too unless youre willing to get a little creative about how you get to eat your cake. So, I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to use a modern starter solenoid, but could find no way to do so without replacing my flywheel, and tons of other odd work. Way too complex for such a simple task, as far as i am concerned. so...time to get creative......

this is the finished product. my frankenstarter.



in order to get here, i tried to do things more simply, but it simply would not work. so.......the logical steps, if i were to repeat this surgery would go like this:

make sure the starter works in the first place. i didnt know if it was the foot pedal, or the motor that went bad, so i tested. i dont have a fancy shop just yet, so i had to do this by hand. i was prepared in case this starter motor had some monster torque when the juice was applied. mine luckily does not, yours might, so take precautions when testing if youre not going to do it in a " proper " manner.

so, i took the foot pedal part off, and zapped the little copper nub that sits on top of the starter motor, and she came to life. a little note to make here, is that the gear wont quite engage properly when the electricity is applied directly to the nub. it turns out that the foot pedal is needed to actually push the gear forward when starting.

next step is securing my new bits to this tiny little nub. its too tiny to be useful unto itself, so here is where i first got creative. i dont have any pics of this exact step, but its simple enough. i used a 3/8 drill bit, and made about a 1/4 inch deep hole in the nub.

next, i took apart a small hose clamp, and made my new starter wire:

so, i put them together in the order shown above, so that the hose clamp will also clamp in the new wire most securely.

then i put the hose clamp on the nub as best as i could, but since it is such a tiny little nub, it would not hold well unto itself. much care had to be used for the next step:

i filled in the hose clamp with solder used for copper piping in plumbing. i filled in the hole i drilled, and i kept adding solder until the hose clamp had been filled in all the way.

one point of note to be made here: i have no clue how the nub attaches to the rest of the motor, so i used low heat to make sure i didnt desolder anything inside, just in case.

another note, i did end up slightly dislodging the nub from being quite as secure as it once had been.....part of my experimentation that went wrong. when this happenned, the starter would not work. i turned the nub back to its original heading, and it worked again. so, now i have to make sure the nub is aligned in its original orientation, or it wont work. so, when i was done with everything, i used my trusty zip ties to hold the lead wire in place to help maintain orientation, as shown in the first picture, which is the finshed product.


any tie up questions? email me: AECoach12@Live.com

the blog contatins explanatory pics

also, i cant say that i recommend this procedure to anyone just yet, as it has no real world use yet, but ill tell you in 6 months if this turns out to be safe to utilize or not.

The obvious question would be "Why?" This sounds like a solution to a nonexistent problem. 6 volt stomp starters have been operating happily on 12 volts for decades- - - -just connect a 12V battery and do the other modifications necessary for the conversion such as installing a correct coil, light bulbs, and charging system components.

How do you propose to engage the drive gear without the pedal linkage connected, and if you intend to use the pedal again, what earthly reason is there to ruin a perfectly good starter with that Rube Goldberg concoction? Stomp starter contactors switches are available everywhere- - - -and there's even one that has an ignition resistor bypass terminal for use with a 12 volt ignition system.

Bad idea!
Jerry

Edit: If you absolutely have to have a solenoid-engaged starter for some reason, just install a 1950-54 passenger car starter that uses a key-turn switch instead of a stomp pedal, and install a key-start ignition switch. Then you won't have to do the 12V conversion.
Jerry
.

the 12 volt conversion was the first thing i did. i heard tell that stomp starters would die more frequently when on 12 volts, so i created this so that i could have more readily available parts for my truck. i intend to use this truck as a work truck, and waiting 3 to 5 business days for an online order will kill me. and besides, the stomp starter already died. and as i noted on my web page, the foot pedal still acts as a starter clutch, and i dont need to change out to a new starter or flywheel.
an odd idea it may be, but it cant be a bad idea....ive only changed the way electricity makes it to the starter motor, and instead of relying on mechanical contact to transfer power, i now have electrical contact to transfer the power, so my power flow to my starter is going to more reliable, and less likely to wear out from being pressed upon, as happened to the old stomp starter part.

I am rather confused about the whole post. The starter Bendix in the 50's and 60's solenoids with key start were notorious for failing. A simple switch replacement or cleaning the contact lug would fix a manual starter. Actually 12 volts passes half the amperage as 6 volt and the life expectancy for 12 volt mechanical solenoids was better than 6 volt.

this is for a 49 chevy, and the 50+ chevy uses a different starter that would require that i use a new flywheel. i attempted to rebuild the foot pedal button, but the arcing that occurred when making initial contact had corroded away the copper, so that there was no chance of making contact again. and i know that arcing in any circumstance is bad, so i have removed that possibility with a permanently solid connection.

or maybe i am just wierder that i had previously thought....

Got that right! Solved a nonexistent problem with a shade-tree fix!

Jerry

it's entirely possible it's had 60 years of arcing before eroding enough to 'fail', but those switches are available, and it's frequently possible to just turn the contact over and have it continue to work fine .... maybe you're just late to finding this site for info about these old rigs

Bill

thanks for the new link!

so.....maybe i'm the only one who insists on a modern solenoid, but i'm ok with that.....

Yup, reinvent the wheel.
I'd look for a fire extinguisher to mount when doing these types of electrical modifications.

Nice old dump truck, you get an E for Effort and probably will get a D- for Design. I don't wish to pile on you. You are trying to fix a starter and don't want to wait for parts. I suppose you know: "and i wanted to replace that with a modern starter solenoid" is not accomplished. You have built a battery terminal that will break loose and fall off and short out and leave you stranded or burned up. If that is the battery cable, how do you keep the starter from spinning ALL the time? Your finished picture does not show the lever that operates the missing switch. I don't understand how it all works because you are a worse "tip" blogger than a starter modifier. You have done what I may have done a few times, and that is: enter this forum with a tip about a simple problem, explaining to a group with 582,000 years of experience and didn't ask one question before hand. In your 9 posts, 4 are this starter, 2 you give advice and you say you are brand new to these trucks?

"so.....maybe i'm the only one who insists on a modern solenoid"
You don't have a modern solenoid, I don't see any solenoid.
darn, I guess I did pile on, sorry...... Oh, Welcome?

What you should have done is turn the contact button on the starter 180 deg and got a new switch if that is what was wrong. O'Reilly's either has that switch or can get it in less than a day (PN S46). Now you have to buy a new starter and switch. An electro magnetic solenoid would have never lasted that long. The mechanical solenoid was pretty well thought out and has huge copper contacts and was used to at least 1959 on 6 cyl three speeds.
We will help you if you let us. This is just trial by fire. Literally. I'm so funny
The only way that cable will have a chance to stay on is to completely strain relieve it with a couple more of your hose clamps around the starter case and smash the cable tight. It will surely still bust off but will be safer. If that cable is always hot (which it can't be) hits the starter case, the battery will blow which will break off the hydraulic cylinder and the dump will activate and bring you to a safe stop.

I kinda got bogged down in the long post and missed the pictures. And thats the good part. I don't know about a modern starter solenoid, but a solenoid that was used on Fords from the 30's until the Y-Block era would supply power to his hilbilly fix starter. But that's not modern. Wonder how he's gonna make the thing engage. Maybe he'll put a modern servo on it. I was gonna suggest duct tape to keep the cable from flopping around when it comes loose from the starter, but that may conduct electricity. Maybe a couple of dozen zip ties like I use on wire harnesses would keep it from welding itself to something. Our local Carquest stocks the switch that would have fixed it in the first place. It was used on John Deere tractors as well as GM.

well, like you said, i may be the worst tip blogger, so be it, i'm not exactly an educator, but some of the questions you had i did indeed accomplish, but i did not state....my bad. the solenoid is in the truck and working just fine. the starter is not always hot, thats not possible, thats what the solenoid is for. should the post i created break off, there is no electricity going to the terminal unless the starter switch is depressed, so there will be no problems in case of breakage.

as for the original foot pedal button, i did indeed turn the internal copper plate 180, and it would still not make contact. both ends of the plate, from the battery post, and the starter nub, were pretty badly arced away.

as for my wiring job, i assure it is more than sufficient and safe. i specialize in limousine restoration, and my wiring is in some vehicles still in service with over 6 years running. im used to having to rebuild things from scratch because the coachbuilders usually dont have parts available for the conversions that they do, so i have to get creative.

should i need to replace the starter, everything is in place for me to be able to swap in an original starter with no changes needed.

i read a lot on the forums before i got to work. no, i didnt ask questions. i had no questions about my plan. i just needed to know how these things were supposed to work in theory, and what the common failing points are. i read that the starters will work quite well on 12 volts, so i saw no problem doing my modifications, as the starter should resume a normal life span on 12 volts.

yes, chevy used this foot pedal design for quite some time, but im pretty sure theres a good reason that modern cars use solenoids instead of mechanical buttons.

if i have done my job well, then this solution will last for as long as the starter itself remains in good working order. i have the engine tuned so that she starts up in less than 4 revolutions, so the starter wont be getting stressed, and should live a long healthy life.

if i have offended anyone by not asking questions, and posting my work here for curiosity sake, i apologize, i mean no disregard for the years of experience in this forum. that experience is the reason i am here. just because i dont follow what everyone else does, does not mean that i do not appreciate their work or their methods.

i appreciate the constructive criticism, as it will help me become a better member of these forums.

also:



this is how easy she starts up now.

That's OK- - - - -us oldtimers need a good belly laugh every now and then!


Jerry

After all that, I still have no idea what you did. I don't know if you are pushing the foot at the same time as the new button on dash or if there is some other actual electro magnetic solenoid in the system. No pictures, no words, no part numbers, no explanation. Just a hose clamp filled with solder and a button on the dash. I can guess what you did but I thought it was a tip not a test? Why didn't you just put a new bolt or use the "nub" bolt thru the cable end and into the case with insulator?
Just to be clear, the 180 deg turning was for the "nub" bolt, as you call it, not the contact inside the foot switch, the whole foot switch is easy to replace. That "nub" bolt is sold by a member here who rebuilds starters. It comes off from inside the starter. Contact Post/Stud
I know you are all done with your mod, this stuff is for everyone else who may visit the post after I'm dead.

i wasnt brave enough to take the starter itself apart since it was working just fine, aside from the foot switch.

a copy and paste from my original blog post on the website for the truck:
http://49chev6400.webs.com/apps/blog/
a little note to make here, is that the gear wont quite engage properly when the electricity is applied directly to the nub. it turns out that the foot pedal is needed to actually push the gear forward when starting.

i figured that once it was seen how i got the starter modified to accommodate a direct wire connection, that common wiring practices for installing a solenoid would take over, and that i would not have to explain a common procedure.

so.....you push the starter floor pedal from inside the cab. this acts like a clutch for the starter now. then you push the push starter button on the dash, and the engine turns over. release both foot pedal and starter button when the engine starts up.

i had hoped that this starter was like modern starters when i started this project, and that the gear on the starter was spring loaded, and would eliminate the need of the pedal. turns out i was wrong, it makes me wonder when the mechanisms that make a modern starter work automatically were added to starters in the first place then.

continuing.....so this new wire post is directly connected to the second terminal of the solenoid, and the primary terminal of the solenoid is directly connected to the battery. then there is the ground post, and the signal post which goes into the cab and up to the push button starter. the push button starter gets its 12 volts from a power distribution block under the dash that i have installed for 12v accessory add on purposes. such as this one:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/28445173?...;wl5=pla&wl6=19880599990&veh=sem
i have added two pictures to my blog that should hopefully fill in any gaps at this point.
i used the factory original fuse block where applicable, and added new fuse blocks where necessary.
where possible, i followed the original wiring diagram, diverging only where the 12v conversion made it necessary, or when items i needed were missing, or when i needed to add a fuse for safety.

also, thank you for your active interest in this post, it has let me know that there were questions to be asked that i didnt know to ask about.

If your happy, that's all that counts. You now have two switches to go bad, more wiring, more terminations, don't see a ballast bypass, and still have to foot start and also hand start after turning on a key. Modern it ain't. Better it ain't, more reliable it ain't. Very innovative. Shows you are energetic. Sounds like you have a fun job at the Limo place. You have not offended anyone by not asking. We were just having fun with ourselves. You are good to go, looks like.

BTW: There are three types of Solenoids used in the vehicles we have on here. The one you show is a switching solenoid, used to make contact with large volt/amp circuits, second is an electro magnetic solenoid mounted on top of a starter, self contained switch with a return spring inside. That one moves a lever which has a drive gear and at the same time makes electrical contact and spins the starter. The third one is the foot starter where your foot operates a lever which has a drive gear that engages the flywheel and makes electrical contact (foot switch) at the same time, as you now know. Sometimes the first two are used together. In your pic, I don't see the return spring. Did you reinstall it?

A spring on the linkage disengages the starter on the original starter. Passenger cars and COE trucks of this era used a solenoid attached to the starter that had a spring in it to disengage it. The design you originally had was much more reliable than the solenoids that were attached to to the starter in that era. GMC used the mechanical starter switch on their 6 cylinders on 6 volt through 1955 and on their 12 volt 6 cylinders from 56 through 1959 and they worked fine. A simple switch like red58 linked and cleaning the lug fixed them.

I would have never soldered like you did. If you didn't get enough heat to the lug, you will have a cold joint. If you got enough heat to it, I would have fears that you damaged insulation insulation inside the starter.

I have done a lot of soldering in my life. I started with tube and chassis radios in the 50's. The only wire I solder on our trucks these days is the 4-0 battery cables. I use Kester 44 old stock that I buy on eBay that still has lead in it. Years ago I soldered a lot of wires on trucks. Now I use crimp connectors that have heat shrink on them. I learned many years ago that solder cracks with vibration just like welds. My father in law was an aircraft mechanic during the war and I have had several mechanics during the years in my shop that had a lot of experience with aircraft maintenance.

I just now took the time to read this post as I enjoy reading about others ideas and innovations. Wow! Welcome AEternal1.

I always figured that the stomp starter and cloth wiring were some of the attributes that make a Stovebolt a Stovebolt. I suppose everyone sees the world through their own filter.

Good luck with your project.

I am surely not against resto-moding an old truck for convenience, pleasure, safety and reliability. If it's a work truck or family vehicle, it may need improvements. An old dump truck is good iron. To re-purpose it and upgrade is good. That particular "innovation" is odd, for the lack of a bitter word, but it works! Not "value added" as they say.