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In another thread that was getting stolen by the topic of the legal issues of hauling/trailering a big bolt.
Thought I would start another topic. (no I did not do a search cus, the laws change often)
The issue was, what are the laws of total weight of the towed trailer that is over 10,000#?
I have 24,000# farm tags on our 3/4 ton diesel and have a gooseneck trailer rated at 20,000#.

What is under state Laws and what is under federal laws?
Need a CDL?
RV/farm tags exempt?
Air brakes?
I do know, anything tagged for 26,000 or more need a CDL.

I don't mind to do short runs locally, but have been known to make runs well over the 10,000# on the trailer plus the weight of the tow vehicle, most of the way across Missouri.

Thanks for any input!

The regulation pertaining to trailers of 10,001 lbs more more has not really changed since CDL became required.



There is a farm exemption, but then you have the burden of proving that the vehicle is actually being used for farm use.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/news-releases/2011/Transportation-Reinforces-Committment.aspx

The states were mandated to create the CDL system. Certain exceptions of state laws are grandfathered. For instance Texas is grand fathered with its 150 mile radious and its 12 hour driving time. However, once a state line is crossed. the driver is regulated by federal regulations for 7 days.

Cren
Thanks for the links!
I'll read further into it and may persue getting a CDL that will cover me in case of an event.
In the mean time, I will not worry about hauling local, it's seldom I tow over 10,000.
Getting to KC and back next Sept. may be a different story.

Thanks

CDL is for COMMERCIAL use of vehicles.

Your State most likely has a 'Class A' license that allows you to drive a large vehicle. PA does:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLicensePhotoIDCenter/license_classes.shtml

Non-commercial Driver's Licenses

CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).

I drove my 1966 M35a2 (23,500 Gross, can tow 10,000) without a CDL legally.

You want to drive legally, but you sure as heck don't want a CDL (go ahead and try and figure out IFTA and log book crap).

Check you State.. that's the only way to be sure.

Just checked, MO has a Class 'A' non-commercial license.. YOU WANT THAT.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/PNNT7CinxIrf331DGLP4phPeBrziALdgMsL95J0cEbo=w208-h207-p-no

Don't be the guy in the picture, do yourself a favor and get a CDL and be done with it.

It's not just "get the CDL" you must also get your medical certificate through a CDL qualified Dr. and then you should study the exam book, then if you decide to go all out you still need to take the air brakes exam, if you don't take the air brakes test then you will have the exemption on your licenses. then when its time to take the driving part of the test you better have all your ducks in a row and "dress right dress" because if you fail then you have to wait the designated amount of time (per state) before retaking the test. and then there is the "third party testers" which do the testing for the state at a nominal fee (250/500) depending on the site and if you use your own equipment or theirs.

You do NOT WANT A CDL *UNLESS* you are operating a vehicle in COMMERCE (really, no joke).

If you are going to do anything that uses the truck for commerce (ie acting as a common carrier and other defined commercial activities) then you need a CDL.

Getting a CDL will not 'protect' you from anything. More likely, you will get in MORE TROUBLE with a CDL and NOT operating like one (proper tags, insurance, logs, etc etc etc).

Go ahead and read up on IFTA and the big ball of paperwork THAT is. Pay your fuel tax to every state you drive in, for the proper amount of miles... every quarter. Miss a quarterly filing because you didn't drive? No problem, you still get to PAY THE FINE and fill out the paperwork.

MO law exempts farm vehicles when used for farm use and RV

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C300-399/3020000775.HTM

Otherwise, MO law mirrors Federal Motor Carrier Law.

http://dor.mo.gov/forms/Commerical_Driver_License.pdf

The vehicle is definitely not an RV. I question is if he can meet the burden of proof that the vehicle is being used for farm use.

I do not advocate anyone getting a CDL that doesn't need one. A driver must have a current medical card. Otherwise he is restricted to intrastate driving. The threshold for drunk moves to .04 and 2 serious violations which include red lights, improper change of lanes and speed over 15 miles of posted limit results in revocation of all driving privileges for a year.

However, just holding a CDL does not require a driver to log. IFTA stands for International Fuel Tax Agreement and has nothing to do with a CDL. I hold an IFTA license because I have trucks that run interstate. It requires no action by my drivers who must have a CDL.

Unless you are driving a COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE you do not need a CDL. Having a CDL when you do not need it will get you jammed up as you will most likely not be in compliance with all CDL rules.

The operation of a privately owned vehicle is not under the pervue of the FMSCA.

If you leave the state, you need IFTA. If you have a CDL, and a trailer with anything on it with no DOT/IFTA sticker you are going to have a NICE LONG CHAT with the trooper. Your drivers may not 'do anything' but you may have a back end that does it for you. Plus if you mistakenly pull into a weigh station and they don't see the proper tags/stickers you get to sit, and since you have a CDL they can suspend it, and now you have NO LICENSE to drive your truck.

Call your insurance company. They will tell you if you need a CDL as operating a commercial vehicle without a CDL is illegal. The BIGGEST HEADACHE is that every state is different. You will have to root around and get the answer from your own DMV. I know in PA I don't need one (just a PA non-commercial class 'A').

The operation of a privately owned vehicle is not under the pervue of the FMSCA.

The above statement is completely false. If the author of this statement can read, I would suggest he read the following.



It should be noted that MO and PA is included in the list of states requiring USDOT numbers

Also, IFTA applies to the vehicle, not the driver. PA as well as all other IFTA jurisdictions recognize my Texas issued IFTA decals. I report my IFTA tax to Texas quarterly. The Texas Comptroller in turn pays the other jurisdictions. It should be noted that RVs and pickups are clearly exempt, but the guy who started this thread is not driving a pickup or an RV.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/porta...36/motor_carrier_road_tax_decals/1279410

Please read this:

Companies that operate commercial vehicles transporting passengers or hauling cargo in interstate commerce must be registered with the FMCSA and must have a USDOT Number.

BECAUSE YOU MISSED THE QUALIFYING STATEMENT

AND is involved in Interstate commerce:

That is the entire premise of the CDL rules... COMMERCE.

I'm lucky, in PA its very clearly laid out.. we have enumerated NON-COMMERCIAL Class A licenses. Other States its not that clear.. as they never envisioned that a private vehicle would be large, tow a lot etc etc.

So please REREAD the page THAT YOU CITED and show me where the rules INCLUDE privately owned, not in commerce, vehccles.

Also, I know everyne is all hot to trot and trying to show their knowledge of COMMERCIAL rules, trust me, I know them to... I went through this with my M35A2 and CCKW... but what I know, that most of the 'po-fessionals' don't is what DOESN'T APPLY to POVs/NON-Commerce.. that that is:

CDLs are for operating a truck IN COMMERCE (there are some weird air brake rules though).

*SOME* States (I have said in every post it vary's from State to state) will call a CDL and 'Class A' the same thing. So getting a one means you have the other. But *SOME* States (PA for example) do not.

So you must call the DMV, hope you get a smart person and then, more importantly, get the number of the code (Title, chapter, subsection) and read it to ensure it applies to YOU.

As for IFTA, you cross State lines with a CDL you better file quarterly IFTA. Get stopped with no IFTA tag, outside of your home State, fine-a-roonie. No kidding the IFTA follows the TRUCK, not the driver, but if you are in a something big enough to 'look' like a commercial vehicle, out of state, with a CDL license in your pocket have fun talking to the trooper.

pfarber, are you actually in the trucking business or just a self proclaimed expert. I operate as a private carrier as well as a contract carrier and a Texas specialized motor carrier. This can be verified: USDOT 272279 MC 590227 TXDOT 35687. I make my living with trucks and I have been doing this since 1964. I deal with Federal Motor Carrier regulations on a daily basis. I' m not sure that this thread has benefited the guy that first asked a question. Just for the record, commerce is not the entire premise of a CDL.

Sorry,pfarber,but I agree with crenwelge. I drove dedicated freight for eight years. When C.D.L.'s were first issued,it was to put the pride back into trucking. The goal was to have every state in the lower 48,follow the same guide lines. Since I was a company driver,and not an O/O,I didn't need a fuel tax stamp. That was the owner's responsibility. Since his rigs carried at least 500 gallons of fuel,he had tags for only the states he had us fuel in. We could fuel in Ia.,Mo.,Ok.,Il.,and Mi.,but you better not get caught fueling in other states,since he didn't pay for their state fuel tax surcharge. You do need to have a D.O.T. approved physical,too. Some troopers here in Iowa,are "cool",with a privately-owned truck,towing another vehicle,(as long as it's not a commercial endeavor,preferably same owner),and other ones are a pain in the "Donkey". If your rig runs on gasoline,I Don't Think you need a fuel tax stamp,I think it pertains only to Diesels.If your trailer is equipped with electric brakes,you don't need the air-brake endorsement. It's nice to have,just in case,but the text/questions on the air brakes are a pain. I lost my C.D.L.,but plan on obtaining a Class B,as soon a s'"Tater" gets her brakes up-graded. I'll only be piggy-backing,so i'll be under the G.V.W. reg's,but better safe than sorry. Sorry about the rant,but D.O.T. reg's can be a PAIN!!

Guys
Let me clarify what I am doing .
Tow vehicle is a F-250 power stroke pickup with 24,000# farm tags on it.
The trailer is a duel/tamden axle gooseneck dovetail rated for 20,000#.
I got the trailer to haul an International 806 tractor with fluid tires back and forth between the two farms we own.
It hauls the 8 to 9,000# tractor fine.
It's only used for private hauling and not commercils
I have also used the rig to haul historic 2-Ton grain trucks to the Stovebolt KC Reunion several times.
It's only used for private hauling and not commercils
If you want to see a picture John took last year on the way there, go to
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/trailering/trailercomparison.html
and thats me in the red Ferd and gooseneck. I was on the outter road with a 48 3/4 ton loaded, John and Joe were on the interstate in his 9500 GMC, think it is a great picture and thank John for using it.
I encoursge you to try and make this years ten year reunion.
It's a great time.

Next time I go by and see a truck weight scale or a mobile state truck scale, that isn't busy.
I'll stop and ask the guys that hand out the tickets. I think I'm legal, but will check for sure.
Being ignorant of the laws, is no excuse.

I do know that the Mo.CDL laws on air brakes and weight are exempt for vehicles that are Tagged RVs or historic.
But, thats another topic

In Wisconsin your truck and trailer with Farm plates you would still need to have a current CDL Class A to operate it legally. They also require the farm trucks here to have a yearly DOT inspection sticker on them and the Farm / Owner of the equipment is required to have a USDOT number. I know that its common for people getting a CDL license to use a ton truck and gooseneck trailer like yours to take the driving test. You might want to check with your insurance company and see what they feel is needed. I would recommend you contact the MO department of transportation and see what they have to say about your situation. I've had very good luck talking to the Wisconsin Department of Transportation over the years. I've been in the trucking business since 2003. Be safe and cover your bases. Don

just do as you have been, no problems yet so I would not worry about it, plus.. if you get a ticket during our stovebolt reunion
I am sure most the gang would chip in and cover it..

just drive em..

Even though I want to take Freds advice, I think I'll check with the Mo.DMV so if I do take Freds advice, I'll have an idea of how long I would be in holdover.

Don

Yikes... I know some other sites that mirror our rules on no politics or religion ... but also add "No 'do I need a CDL?'" questions, either

From being intensely interested in this very subject, and reading multiple threads on it on the ATHS site and the Steel Soldiers site, the truth seems to be that there is no definitive answer to Don's question. The best advice I've seen is as given above -- Call your state DMV, talk to the commercial motor carrier folks, tell them your situation and get them to tell you in writing (email is good, too, as long as a name and phone number is included) what the requirement is. And then keep it with you in the truck! Until the Feds/States address the issue of hobbyists running around in former/antique commercial vehicles, we don't have an answer other than our local DMV's interpretation.

here in Tx the law is quite clear

we like things simple here

2 ton, I think your last post will do you good. Talk to the scale guys. They should have good info and verify with someone at the commercial section of the DMV. Answers in writing are absolutely the best. Keeping copies in the glove box are an asset. Also ask them about the KC run since it may be outside a 150 mile radius of your place for the Farm rule.

Thanks 88 for backing John up and checking with the DMV for future KC trips.
Not really wanting to get into the CDL just to make it to KC once a year.
Local, I should not have any problems.
I'll probably just bring the 3/4 ton chalk board on a smaller trailer next time. But the goose tows so well!

By the way mrolds88, Welcome the the Stovebolt Page!
And John, sorry for stiring the pot. I did not know it would be so debated.


Don

Joker, the link you post is from the DPS website. The DPS tries to keep things simple. Otherwise, their troopers can't figure it out. However the actual regulations are found in the Texas Administration Code.

http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=37&pt=1&ch=16&rl=2

Definitions are in Texas Transportation Code:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.522.htm

If someone is driving a vehicle that falls into the definition of a commercial vehicle, and is not specifically exempted such as a farmer or an RV is involved in an accident with one of my vehicles, either personal or my company owned and the driver does not have a CDL, I can assure you I will litigate the matter. What the DPS has to say is totally meaningless. Texas law is silent concerning antique vehicles. Therefor it must be assumed that they are not exempt. I have never been involved in an accident with an antique vehicle, but almost every collision one of my vehicles has would up in litigation. And I have always come out on top.

I would suggest anyone who has assets to lose to have an attorney read their state transportation codes before they operate in a gray area and federal codes. This matter has never really concerned me because I have had a commercial license since 1959 and intend on keeping as long as I can pass a physical.

I have been a member of the ATHS for many years, but I am not very active. I will call them next week and discuss the matter with them. That is if they will discuss it with me. I would think that there should be some direction from them in this matter. Most of their members have trucks that fall into the commercial vehicle weight class.

Update
Driving to St. Louis yesterday I spotted the portable Missouri Highway patrol weight/inspection truck backed into a side road with no other vehicles around it, so I stopped and asked about the topic we have been discussing.
After some talk and questions from both of us, here is my take on the farm tag rules for Missouri.
If he sees a truck with farm tags and is hauling a load, not farm related, it's a big yellow flag that it is not legal, (compitition tractors/Pulling trucks) and he will pull it over.
The more we talked the more he opened up.
I also said that, I thought, if a LEO sees just a old farm boy hauling a load of whatever, that they just kind of pass on by looking for the bigger law violators.
Wrong!
He said the drivers that have CDL,s are the best ones to go by the rules and it's the old farm boys that are most likely to bend/break them.
If you go across state lines there is even more laws broken.
Bottom line that he suggested was, to turn in the farm tags, get beyond local tags, pay the extra 15 bucks a year and be able to haul whatever I want, in or out of state, as long as the whole truck and trailer weighs less than 24,000#.

Remember, this is what a missouri Highway patrol LEO told me and he is the one handing out the tickets.
First chance I get I will be trading in the farm tags for beyond local tags.

Turned out that he does not live too far from us, and remembers seeing the Flagpole/Firetruck in the yard.

Hope this helps other people, that may be unknowingly, bending the rules.

Thanks
Don
He also warned me about KC police being rude and will bust anybody for any little violation.

Thanks for the update. I think his advise regarding farm tags would pass on to most states also.

Texas has similar rules as PA:
"A commercial driver license (CDL) is a type of driver license an individual can apply for to transport interstate or intrastate commerce." [ COMMERCE, COMMERCIAL DRIVERS OPERATE VEHICLES IN COMMERCE!!!! - pdf ]

"Recreational vehicles driven for personal use (although a CDL is not required, individuals may need to obtain a Class A driver license), "

You do not want a to operate as a CDL unless you are really operating as a CDL. Inra or Inter State.

I know the CDL rules regarding POV's... as my 1966 M35A2 would, by definition, qualify as a 'Commercial' vehicle as it has 3 axles. But since my tri-axle was not used in Commerce, I was free to drive it under a non-commercial license. I drove in NY, NJ and PA on interstates with PA POV tags. Paid all of $120/year for insurance (State Farm rules!).

Every State is different. States like CA are the worst, but a lot of states DO allow non-commercial Class 'A' licenses. If available, you want that.

You do not want to operate as a CDL if you don't have to. Having a CDL means harsher fines and stricter interpretations of the law.

Example: You get pulled over for suspicion of DUI. Hand the Officer your CDL (even if in your POV). If its your first offense, you might have gotten ARD. NOT WITH A CDL!!
"Driver improvement programs are not allowed by any person for any offenses committed in a CMV or by any CDL holder whether the offenses are committed in a noncommercial or commercial motor vehicle."

The scale folks are not authoritative on the subject. Neither is LEO. They enforce the law, they do not interpret it. So they know what they have been told, not what is legal. Yes, there is a HUGE difference.

Keep your truck maintained, drive safe (and SOBER!!!). The CDL issue is never an easy one as every State is different and people the drive CDL for a living only know THEIR side of the rules... not what you need/don't need for non-commercial licenses.

And I have to add this, the legal definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle



"Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle—"

States may vary, but this is the Federal legal definition.

I'll toss in my local two cents for the discussion. While getting my drivers license address changed over I picked up the CDL pamphlet thingy they had there. Anyway, it clearly states that a regular license is fine under 26,000lbs gross truck weight rating unless towing, in which case you need a class a if the trailer is over 10,000lbs gwr. But, if the total combination gwr is under 26,000lbs you don't need one if the trailer is over 10,000lbs.

So, by this definition you have to have a class A license to pull a dual tandem 20K rated trailer unless your truck is rated 6K. On the other hand, something like a 14K trailer + a 10K truck is good to go. This agrees with the legal stuff I've read on the subject; they go by rated weight, not actual. To avoid potential BS you might want to consider selling/trading your tandem dual trailer for something like a 14K single wheel version if you don't really need the extra capacity.

Also, for the sake of reducing arguments, can we acknowledge the existence of non-commercial truck licenses? That always seems to be an area of confusion in these discussions. At least some states (like mine) have them, and in that case you don't need a commercial license just because of weight ratings. BUT, you still can't drive a heavy truck with a standard "car" license.

I completely agree that if you are in a State smart enough to have non-commercial Class 'A' licenses you want that.


In PA:
CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLicensePhotoIDCenter/license_classes.shtml


But in CA:

With a Noncommercial Class A License:
Any vehicles under Class C.
travel trailers weighing over 10,000 lbs. GVWR, not used for hire.
5th-wheel travel trailers weighing over 15,000 lbs., not used for hire.

With a vehicle weighing 4,000 lbs. or more unladen, you may tow a:
livestock trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs. GVWR but not exceeding 15,000 lbs. GVWR if the vehicle is controlled and operated by a farmer, used to transport livestock to or from a farm, not used in commerce or contract carrier operations, and is used within 150 miles of the person's farm.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm

That's the confusing part. But in general, if at all possible, you do not want a CDL. Nor do you want to lie about your intentions and use farm/historical plates as its just as illegal as no having the proper license.

This is a big issue for MV owners (lots of tri-axle MVs) and antique/vintage tuck guys (Antique Truck Club) as the law/DMV never considered that people would own a tractor trailer/large vehicle and NOT be in commerce. So of the millions of vehicles on the road, there is a very small % that don't really 'fit' and making us/them 'be' CDLs is also not what the law clearly defines.

There was a push a few years ago for an FMSCA/IFTA exemption for 'antique/collector' non-cdl type's.. but I don't think it ever got anywhere.

The rendering plant is full. (dead horses) Time to move on.

Thanks again Don, this is a issue that has no defined answer, depending on what state you are in.
And John, I'm sorry again for opening the can of worms.
I'm going with what the Mo. State LEO that hands out the tickets told me.
Switch to 24,000# beyond local tags, haul what ever I want, as long as the whole rig is less than 24,000# and is safe.
I'll also ask at the DMV when I change plates to insure thay agree with what the Constable On Patrol told me.

Like Don Stocker Said, the rendering plant is full and any more discussion will be done in KC this Sept. In person.

See you there

Don King