The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Mallory, Pertronix, Langdon or??

Below is the extent of my research so I am hoping now for good solid honest opinions on what HEI Distributor to buy. How does the vac advance work on these? How is fuel economy? Mostly, how is performance affected?

http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/#!/~/product/id=1222040

http://mallory-ignition.com/dist-chev-6cyl-235-unil.html

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/dist/cast/default.aspx

There was also a Bolter who had a how-to (Jason) here:

http://www.greasygringo.com/2012/06/59-chevy-hei-conversion/ and when I pressed him a little on parts..

Here is the parts list:

Standard Motor Products LX105 Ignition Reluctor $1.50
Standard Motor Products LX103 Distributor Ignition Pickup $12.59
Speedway Motors 91012338 Stock HEI Replacement Module $14.99
AC Delco 10474610 HEI Module Heat Sink $12.73

Any words of wisdom on where to go from here? Thanks!

Gosh, Deve,

If you are interested in best cost, stay with points/condenser.

If you want HEI at the lowest cost, make your own (Jason).

If you want to know about fuel economy, it would be nice to know if anyone has good enough data to calculate how many miles you have to run to payback for Pertronix/HEI/Jason-option.

It will be interesting to see if anyone has data to compare performance of HEI vs Pertronix vs Jason-option?

The vacuum advance works with on a Pertronix the same as with points.

However you decide to go, carry a spare or a backup.

HEI gives you glam; but, points give you the ability to explain to a young person how it was done in the old days.

Don't mess around Langdon's is the only way to go. Points and condenser are archaic. You can spend more time on other things you need do instead of points, rotor, and condenser. Langdon's is bullet proof and tested and he will answer any questions you might have. You can't build one for what his cost and you can get parts at any FLAPS.

I got mine from Langdon's. Worked great, one of the best upgrades you can make in my opinion.
don

The way I see the scenario is,
Langdon: It gives you HEI and the ability to get off the shelf parts at any FLAPS, it doesn't look anywhere close to the original but will function good.

Mallory: If a person is doing performance upgrades using modern parts it is probably the go to unit use.

Pertronix: This will allow an upgrade to electronic ignition but still retain the look of an original distributor. Many guys have had issues, but many have also had years of success.

Jason: This is a 100% do it yourself conversion and will take time to do and get working. If you are hands on and want to say you did it this is for you.

I don't think mileage will differ much if a person were to do a test on the same engine using all 4 different options. As to the performance side of things I think that the more other things have been done to the engine it will benefit more with different distributor options that are more suited to the application and intended use.

Don

I've been running Langdon's for 10 years in my '56 without a hiccup. Very happy with it.

I have Langdon's very first Mini Hei, never a problem and as noted, I can get parts at any auto parts.

Another vote for Toms' HEI distributor.
BTW, Wire set for a mid '80s F-rd 300 fit good.

Looks like I am in the minority of those posting in this thread.

My suggestions:

EITHER

points and condenser

OR

electronics and cell phone

The world existed successfully for many years without cell phones. They were invented to call toll trucks when electronics fail.

Jon.

I'm with ya Jon points, condenser, rotor and cap don't cost much and don't take up much room in the glovebox, and only take a few minutes to change, even at the side of the road, I don't need no stinkin cell phone

Bill

I agree, too, Jon & Bill,

I have a Pertronix unit in one truck. But I have points in the other two. As I posted above, I carry an adjusted-points distributor in whatever truck I am driving.

I now see no benefit to having an HEI/Pertronix unit. I do not drive at high RPMs - the only possible reason for going to HEI?

I'm with carb king. Part of the experience of owning an antique car or truck, is maintaining the different aspects of the vehicle. Greasing, setting the points, checking the dwell, setting the timing, adjusting the carburetor, checking the fluids etc. Points and condenser set ups will go 5 thousand miles easy between adjustments. If I wanted a vehicle I didn't have to tinker with, I would go by a new car or truck. What fun would that be?

I have been converting many of my customers over to Pertronix mainly because I get tired of the calls in the spring that there vehicle will not start.
In the Seattle area we get a fair amount of moisture in the winter. Points seem to like to corrode because of this making for hard starting in the spring.

This may sound weird, but that's because I said it.. The Amish drive John Deere tractors around here to plow their fields, but when it comes to the wife going to the grocery store, she has to take the buggy and horses... OR she can take the tractor. Funniest thing this ENGLISHMAN has ever seen is a grocery store parking lot filled with Tractors.

What does this have to do with points/condenser vs HEI? You do the math. This isn't to say I am leaning either way. My very favorite vehicle of all time because so happens I was 15 and my dad helped me decide... was the 1973 AMC Gremlin. It had a 232 6 cylinder in it.. very reminiscent of the 235/261 and had points and condenser. I learned all about dwell, setting the points, everything. As a dumb kid, I then trashed the 232 and installed a 304 V8 (actually an option on the Gremlin) from a Javelin and it too had points and condenser. HEI is totally foreign to me.

This is something I would really like to sort out, so everyone please state your opinion honestly. As some of you have already. Thanks and keep it coming! We did without cell phones, we did without computers, several thousand years ago we lived without round wheels. Our teenage daughters are now trackable via GPS due to the cell phone, on the other hand, our teenage daughters are now trackable via GPS due to the cellphone.

I am looking for a more trouble free, smoother running engine that isn't tasked more by the choking, spitting and backfiring that can happen when points are worn, and condensers fail. It puts undue pressure on the engine parts when its not 'happy'. HEI purportedly makes the engine 'happy' more of the time.

Not true? I want to hear everything because I am totally undecided. I tend to agree with Ed about tinkering.. I love to tinker, only problem is, I have 8 trucks that I tinker with so too much of anything can be annoying. Thanks all!

"I am looking for a more trouble free, smoother running engine that isn't tasked more by the choking, spitting and backfiring that can happen when points are worn, and condensers fail." what makes any engine "happy" is to be taken care of

when I was a kid my Dad owned a small cab company, the cabs were 52-3 Chevys [and one Packard for occasional peak period backup ], he looked for 'trouble free' too, his income depended on it .... where that hides out is a place called preventive maintenance I doubt he had many problems caused by faulty distributor parts because regular attention to tune was on the schedule, as recommended in the shop manual .... my intro to old 'bolts was in the dirt floored garage of Dads mechanic

Bill

We put over 450,000 miles on our previous shop truck before it rusted out the third time from winter salt and cinders (thanks MO Dept of Trans.). During this time I replaced the clutch once, the tires twice, AND THE ELECTRONIC IGNITION TWELVE TIMES!!!

After walking twice, I carried TWO of the things in the glove box, and the tools to change it.

As to the rest, we never even had to remove the cylinder head.

Since then, I have removed TWO HEI systems, and replaced them with points distributors with no issues.

Jon.

Bill brings up an interesting note, "preventive maintenance". Its been about 40 years since new GM vehicles came with breaker point ignition. When those vehicles were in everyday use having a tune-up done was nothing out of the oridinary, it was just something that had to be done. I will say that the first Chevrolet pickups my Dad bought for his fleet caused plenty of headaches with the trouble with the new HEI ignition. As I noted in my earlier post I commented about each different application. For me I stick with the original points and condenser in my Chevrolet's. I do have a Pertronix in my '47 F**d Tudor, the flathead has its distributor on the front of the motor and uses 2 set of points. And to properly install and adjust the points in a flathead the distributor needs to be put in a fixture or use a distributor machine. It took me a lot of time to finally get the Pertronix dialed in and working so the guys that caution making the switch bring up a good warning flag.
Don

In the interests of fairness, since I have mentioned issues with electronics I have experienced; will also mention the one time I had problems with points:

About 50 miles from home and cruising along at about 65 when the engine died.

Had gas, no spark.

Pulled distributor cap, and found points contactor arm BROKEN in half. Didn't have a spare set of points (about 22 at the time).

Rummaged around in the trunk and found an old piece of baling wire. And had a bottle of wooden matches in the glove box. Carefully cut two wooden matches to fit the back side of the contactor arm, and spliced it together with the wire. Set the dwell using a dime for reference.

Tried the key, and the engine started. It took us about an hour and a half to get home, but we DID get home, WITHOUT walking.

Jon.

HEI or Points....OK I will bite.
HEI, Good,
Better spark at the plug.
Consistent timing.
Set and forget.
Bad,
Bad connection, No spark.
Bad component, No repair, replace only.
No parts at local FLAPS if not OEM.
Set and forget. Yep both good and bad.
More $ initial outlay.

Points,
Good,
You set.
You fix.
Parts at local FLAPS.
Good spark.
Lasts, about 3 to 5 thousand miles.
Can be adjusted if need be.
Bad,
Mechanical, not as stable.
Water is not your friend.
Less Spark.
You have to set and adjust. Yep both good and bad.

I have both in old trucks. Easy upgrade and generally reliable. Routine checks and maintenance will make both work longer. Personal choice as far as I can tell. Does any one make an HEI in 6 volts? Can you hide it so no one can tell? Do you care?

Why does HEI quit? When it is new look for what I call "infant mortality". Electronic parts most likely to fail early. Later? bad connection or bad voltage. The electronics don't like current changes. Set and forget will allow rotor and cap to wear too long and might make you forget to lube the dizzy. That shaft starts to wobble and stuff will break. You think point gap is critical? Try a bad air gap, and, it is smaller.
Your truck, your choice.

I have Langdon's dizzy on my 53 and it starts almost immediately no matter the weather if the gas is fresh. That means letting it run for 10-15 minutes a month so the gas doesn't get too stale and keeping a minimum amount in the tank when it's not being driven. I genuinely believe gas is half the equation. No problems with this unit since installed 9 years ago.

On the other hand I just had to replace the Mallory unit in my 57 and it looked good but wouldn't run for s...t. Last Mallory I'll ever own. Bought a Pertronix dizzy from Amazon and it is great. Only problem was it took them three times before they accepted the fact that Ferd dizzys won't fit a SBC.

The performance of each is really good but the milage isn't too great on either and seems to involve my right foot. So a discussion on mileage is way too subjective to mean anything anyway. All the options you list may be good choices for you.

This thread got me to thinking about how many times a point dist broke down on me and I couldn't come up with one single time.
I have had several point dist engines of varying makes and models to not start due to the points being corroded and wouldn't conduct but, they were all cases of engines that had sat for long periods of time out in the elements.

What I'd like is a stovebolt dist cap w/a window and a set of points that the dwell can be adjusted through the door (like the later model GM V8's)

I actually can say I had the points break on me once. I was on a mission to see my wife 1200 miles away. I left from Biloxi and got 50 miles or so west of San Antonio.. NOTHING there, and the engine quit near an exit ramp near a closed gas station. It was sunday. But, one of the locals called the owner and he came out and got out his cigar box of points and found a set for me. The arm was broke in half. But its rare. VERY rare. 1954 3100. At 20 years old, I learned fast! Keep the thread going! So far this thread is looking like one of those keepers for those who have this question later. I know its sure helping me!

I've been building and working on vintage VWs for 33 years. I and friends have done the Pertronix thing.

Too many unpredictable failures with the Pertronix.....I run points on my VWs and I'm sticking with points on my Fleetline too.

So far, correct me if I am wrong..

1) Nothing bad to say about Langdons HEI unit. For me, the only drawback is it doesn't have that original look. I could get over that for trouble free operation.

2) Mallory isn't touched on too much. Not sure why more people don't go that route.

3) Pertronix has its detractors. Seems to be a higher failure rate than I would like to hear especially since it has the more original look so a top choice?

4) Since these aren't modern engines were you buy the car, years later sell the car without ever opening the hood, regular attention is required so points are really no problem?

Langdon sells a round stock looking coil. Would Langdons round coil work with a Pertronix unit? Nostalgia is sort of important to all of this. Making it look too modern just takes away from it all.

So following along in the 'Looks' line of reason for choosing and fairly comfortable in the "I still don't want to set points all that much" camp, I'm left with buying a spare pertronix and keeping it where the spare points would be?

I could take it out of storage every 3000 miles and smile and then put it back away knowing if I do need it someday it'll be there for me...
and I can tell myself that aught to be worth something! Maybe a beer or two while I sit and think about how I'm not changing the points again!

Except for the first dozen or so times... when I don't have any beer, cause I have that money tied up in a part in my glovebox

just stick with the points, I mean seriously just how much time do you actually spend working on them. At least when you do, it will most likely be on your own terms, rather than stranded along side the road in a rain storm. I have had vehicles with points my whole life, and can honestly say I have had no issues with starting or missing or what ever you are trying to fix. I did have a condenser quit at a McDonalds drive through once. I don't suppose in my life all told I have spent more than 5 hours setting points. I spent 3 hours waiting on the bus going home to get the points I forgot to put back in the glovebox, and standing in the rain storm putting them back in....Never again.

My old dist had worn bushings and the shaft had a lot of movement, so the points didn't stay set. I bought a new/ reman dist from carquest and had the pertronix installed by a high performance ignition shop in the new dist. I've been driving the truck 6yrs and have not had any problems. You can purchase a round coil from pertronix that is the correct rating for the pertronix ignition.
Sometimes I wonder if the correct coils are not installed that is why some people have the failure problems? I have a few friends that have pertronix in small block chevy's and other makes of cars with no problems.

If you have considered this, I'll shut up and go away with my tail between my legs, but what about a stock GM HEI, or modified one if you have an earlier engine? GM put 'em in everything for years and didn't put an extra anything in the glovebox! Why install anything on your truck, except tires, that you have to have a spare for anyway?

best wishes,

Les

If you have considered this, I'll shut up and go away with my tail between my legs, but what about a stock GM HEI, or modified one if you have an earlier engine? GM put 'em in everything for years and didn't put an extra anything in the glovebox! Why install anything on your truck, except tires, that you have to have a spare for anyway?

best wishes,

Les

Les,
I agree with you, GM put them in millions of vehicles. Sure some went bad, it happens. Think back in the early 70's I was in sales and on the road, a lot of the national sales companies used the f#$d vehicles. They were always on the side of the road with ignition problems, the little box on the fender well.

No Les in both cases, I used the pertronix coil that was for the unit I was using. The factory said it worked on their machine, but it didn't work in my truck, which is where I am concerned about it working. The stock units installed in modern vehicles I would have no problem using, as I run them about 200,000 miles before I sell them, with zero problems. The pertronix on the other hand I can't say that.

Yes, I think most any 12V coil of 45-55000V will work with the HEI's. It isn't necessary to match the vendors to have a good unit.

Mallory cost way too much and you can get a just as good result at lower cost so there won't be as many of them used. Not sure they even offer a unit for a 235 era engine.

Pertronix is the most popular and is lowest cost so naturally it "could" have a little bit higher failure rate but that is pure conjecture and unproven. I've heard those stories about carrying old points crap in your glovebox for years. Just a lot of BS in my opinion. Hell, anything can break.

As for the "Langdons doesn't look original" thing it seems to me the only visible difference is the absence of the flip tabs to hold the cap on. The twist screw tabs are better anyhow. So if that is your deciding criteria then fix your old point dizzy and keep on smiling.

Deve,

I have followed your pictures and story. Personally it seems a shame for you to put all this work into your own vehicle to look nice and original just to go with a modern ignition because you will have to put a little time into it every once in a while. I get it but there will not be noticeable difference. We tried it on the neighbor's truck and ended up taking it out - just felt out of place.

If you drive only your old P&C trucks a combined 25K miles a year that is between 5 and 8 times you will have to fool with them. It's your truck so it is your call but if you are looking for opinions beyond performance I vote to keep the originality.

Let us know if you do any sort of performance/gas mileage tests as I am curious about those as well.

Thanks

Here you go kids.... Bubba does a school that a Midwest man I've trade with attended, you do your own distributor conversion, learn theory, advance curves, etc. Wish I was rich and closer.

enjoy,

Cosmo

Good input ALL. What I keep going back to is, all these years after the 60's HEI was used and vehicles ran hundreds of thousands of miles without ever even thinking about the distributor. So, there should be ZERO, NONE, absolutely nobody contentious about this issue. You should hear... Deve, you dumass, everyone has known for thousands of years now that HEI is just a no-brainer. It should then be a question of LOOKS. I want the new HEI to emulate the looks of the old style to give us vintage enthusiasts our due.

So maybe I am really slow, but what I am hearing is, Pertronix hasn't done its job in making a retro fit HEI work in our 235/261 engines. THEY have the right look, but apparently, they haven't used the 60 years of technology to improve and perfect their system? I mean HELLO? I'm wrong tho right? LOL!

You draw interesting conclusions.

Did you obtain answers for your other questions?

How does the vac advance work on these?
How is fuel economy?
Mostly, how is performance affected?

60 years of success is pretty hard to argue with. But the problem comes in that we are talking about the 235/261. It has its own nuances, and you guys are all the go-to guys for that. Thus the discussion.

I would assume mileage and performance would be the same as a very perfectly adjusted set of points from what I have gathered so far. Now, key here is... a perfectly adjusted set of points perfectly adjusted through the entire life of the engine. This is why I started this thread. I am wrong of course, I am just trying to understand why.

I know that if you are running a generator with Pertronix ignition it can cause gremlins at times. A constant and stable voltage supply is needed to make it function good. I don't know how a Langdon / GM hei functions with a generator.

Hi, Deve, From my experience I have found out that when points systems begin to fail they give you some warning signs such as misfiring, hard starting,ect. When electronic ingitions fail you lose all spark and leave you dead in the water as they say. It does not cost much to carry a spare set of points and a condenser in the glove box, also when installing new points, use a VERY little bit of point cam grease on the point cam. With new points set to .020" and after 1000mi. check points and set to .018" (check timing both times). I have found that after about 5000 mi. the point setting does not change much. have fun Brian