The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Split rim wheels

My 51 1/2 ton has split rim wheels. I've been trying to source some different ones...thinking that these might be a hassle, potentially dangerous, and probably not correct.

Then today, I happened across this article on the Jim Carter site.

Here's another cool link from within that article.

Now I'm having second thoughts. Maybe these would be kind of cool once fixed up. Maybe they were even optional equipment. And using what I have will save me a few bucks.

So, a few questions if any of you have experience with these on a light truck.

1) If I get the rim and ring blasted..how tight are the tolerances between rim and ring and would the blasting take enough material to affect the function?

2) I like the pics and idea of zinc plating or painting/coating the ring silver. Which is better? And if sinc plating is better -- where in the world does a guy get that work done?

The 15" semi drop center were a heavy duty option for 1/2 ton pickups and were designed for a 7.00x15 6 ply tire. It used to be common practice to sand blast them to paint them. Sand blasting blows away the rust and takes away very little of the good metal away and gives you a better opportunity to examine the condition of wheel. All I have ever done with them is painted them. Zinc plating is actually galvanizing. Almost everything in Europe is galvanized. Here about the only thing that I know of is the frame on U Haul trailers. Galvanizing leaves a buildup which could interfere in with the seating of the lock ring. If you want to do anything other than paint, I would consider powder coating. I have contemplated painting lock rings with chrome paint. Up against real chrome, chrome paint looks crappy, but by itself it doesn't look bad.

Ken, I would think that you would have pretty screwed up powder
coat by the time you got the tires mounted up on the 15" split
rims. At least that's been my experience with the paint job on
mine. The original 15" rims that I ran on my '50, 3600, I
painted with Rustoleum after sandblasting, which I was able to
touch up after the new bias ply tires were mounted and balanced.
It was really a wasted exercise in my opinion, since the bias
ply tires were so lumpy first run of the day that I thought
they would shake the front clip right off the frame for 10 or
15 miles. Being factory correct about my wheels just wasn't
worth the time, money and aggravation of dealing with bias ply
tires, tubes & flaps if the truck was actually to be driven.

Correct or not, I am and will from now on, only be using a
radial on a single piece rim. They look just fine from a few
feet away. Of course I couldn't care less what a car show judge
thinks about truck. In fact, if I would have been driving this
truck back around the mid 60's when I was working at a Chevy
dealership, making the switch to a radial tire would have been a
no brainer.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The tolerances are not that close. The 6 20" rims on the '48 2 ton varied from slightly rusted to scaley and after sand blasting everything was fine.

I was going to powder coat but didn't because I was afraid of scratching. But I think it depends on who does the mounting. The guys at Pete's tire barn did 6 rims with radial tires on high gloss painted rims and I didn't have a scratch to touch up.

The way they are assembled (unless the person is clumsy)any scratching would be to the back and inner edge of the ring (hidden when inflated) and the front edge of the center (very visible bit a small surface to touch up).

I was going with argent silver rings on satin black rims to match the black frame, but the client changed the color scheme at the last minute.

There are 2 types of galvanizing hot dip and electroplate.

Hot dip is very good protection but ugly (think hot dip nails)

Electroplate looks shiny (think zinc plated washers)but only if the material is smooth to begin with, which the rings are not.

Reading between the lines here...I guess these rims require tube type tires?

And if so, then I assume that gets you into the bias tire business? (Although I've seen some spirited debate here about running tubes in radials)

I had powder coating the wheels in mind. Not the lock rings. You would have to run tube required tires. It takes a tube designed for a radial tire to run radials, but there is nothing wrong with them. 20" tube required radials were run on school buses until very recently. I just recently bought 6 9.00R20 radials on open center wheels. off of a very late model school bus to put on one of my 2 tons. Tube required radials don't have the cold bounce like the old nylon bias tube required had.

Thanks.

Next question: could a guy even find tube type radials in the size (15 x 7 equivalent)? I'm sure you could in a big truck size....but a quick search of the interwebs makes me wonder if they are readily available. Or if you can run radial tube in a non-tube required tire.

Now I'm starting to think about the beautiful simplicity of single piece

You can run radial tubes in radial tubeless tires. There isn't really any difference in the basic construction of radials requiring tubes and tubeless radials. Any difference is in the sealing bead.

The key is that they have to be radial tubes.

The other thing to consider is, if you think your having a hard
time finding tires, tubes, flaps and someone to service them,
just wait till you take a little trip and have tire trouble.
You would end up sitting for days for sure and maybe weeks.
Blow a tire with a single piece radial rim and tire and your
back on the road as soon as you find the nearest National Tire
company. Sure failed tires are a rarity now days but there is
always the chance the you hit a rut, broken bottle or nail.
Make it easy on your self and hang those 15" split rims up
for wall decoration.
DG

i sent my 15in. split rims from my 53 3/4 ton to tru design wheel in denver co.
he took the rim off and then welded new rims to the original 8 lug center portion of the wheel. we made them 16in. i then had them powdercoated and a local tire store mounted the tires

the only issue i had was with the hubcap retainers. i had to bend each one from the original shape in order to keep the cap on.
the clips were from one vendor and the caps were from a different vendor.
they look great and as denny said from a few feet away you can't tell the difference.

rolf

There's more difference that just the sealing bead. The inner layer of rubber on a tubeless tire is different from a tube type, it's very similar to the rubber that the tubes are made of. Running tubes in a tire not designed for them can cause chaffing of the tube to the inner layer of rubber, leading to premature tube failure. This is especially true if the pressures are not kept up.
In addition, running a tube in pretty much any modern radial tire will void the warrantee. The only exception I have found are the radial tires manufactured and sold by Coker Tire.

Presently I'm using Chevy C20 wheels with an adaptor for the
front to clear the original tie rod ends.
But I've collected about a dozen stock `15" split rims, drilled
out the rivets and pressed the centers out.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/154550619/large
I had the same thing in mind Rolf, that is to send them out and
have them installed in a new single piece tubeless radial rim
. As you posted, that allows you to use the original or
reproduction hub caps with the clips in the stock position.
Also you can specify the proper back spacing when they make up
your rims.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

What'd that cost per wheel?

Think you need to ask Rolf, he's the one that posted that he had
them made up. I've just punched out a bunch of centers but
haven't had any built for myself.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny are you using 16" or 16.5" wheels?

Rolf- I'm in Denver and would like to hear and see more about your split rim conversion. I have the 7.5 x 17.0 8 lugs on my 47' 3/4 ton. Let me know if you have any pics. Thanks.

Mark

Unfortunately the wheels were off an early 70's Chevy 3/4-ton
and they were 16.5". Those tires can still be ordered but are
getting increasingly hard to find. That's why I've punched out
the stock centers and some day would like to have them
installed in 16" rims. Would be much easier to find a 16" tire
if you were stuck out in the boonies on a trip than a 16.5".
I'm far from being an expert on which wheels fit which, I've
been as confused as anybody on which ones might clear
the tie rod ends. A guy that I knew a while back turned
me on to Ford 3/4-ton rims from about the same era.
They're 16" and are shallower on the back side so
they're better at clearing the tie rod ends than
the GM rims. I think they would clear with plenty of
room if you were using the modern style ends on a
tubular tie rod, which we discussed in another thread.
I'll be using the Ford rims and that tie rod on
my '54 if I live long enough to get to it.
DG

Back in the 70's my Dad still had his fleet of trucks. I remember that the first new '76 C20 that he got came with the 16.5's. He kept tires on hand and wasn't very happy about another size to keep. He also got a van that came with the 16.5's. They were terrible on construction sites and in the snow. After those 2 he ordered the 16" wheels. The 2 that had the 16.5's got changed to 16". The tire footprint was much narrower on the 16's. He didn't have any problem getting rid of the 16.5's, the guys with the small motorhomes liked them. It would be interesting to see if the 16's would have any better clearance than the 16.5's with the tie rod.

all
below is a link to some pictures of the original 8 lug centers with new rims
they were 148 each
the rim without a tire is before powdercoating (i had that done in waco).


http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/rgies/library/53%20trk%20progress

Thanks for posting those pictures rgie, looks like your project is moving along nicely. Wish mine was that far along and looking that good. .
Machining the flange off the original centers so they fit inside a tubeless rim seems to be the standard way of adding the original 8 bolt centers to the newer style rims.
Having been in and around the welding field a good portion of my adult life I'm very well aware of the problems from stresses that are set up during the welding process. Crater cracking, stress risers at the ends and edges from undercutting and overlapping, longitudinal cracking are common problems that arise from poor technique or poorly designed joints.
These were some of the problems Kelsey Hayes anticipated when they designed their rims and the reason why a lot of the centers, in a lot of their wheels were riveted into the rim instead of welded.

Charlie ran into a near disaster a while back with wheels that had been modified by welding the centers in using a tee joint: http://s232.photobucket.com/user/cl...eel/c004_zps1bf7feaf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4
This failure is without a doubt the best example I've ever seen of the hazards of welding centers into a rim. This may have been avoided is the joint were designed differently.
It’s basically a tee joint welded from one side without full penetration. When the weld cooled at the four quadrants they shrunk up setting up a tension across the face of the weld which along with the one sided weld bead caused the longitudinal cracks, the stress risers at the ends of the weld were the source of the spider web cracks into the original center.
I not proposing a solution here, but I do have some ideas on how to prevent this however they aren't at all practical unless you had control over how the rims were being made. If they made a rim with a 14.25" ID, which you could press the centers into, retaining the original 90° flange on the OD of the center and plug welding them in a lap joint this would eliminate the stresses set up by the tee joint. The lap joint would be in shear where the tee joint has a bending component to it, But....of course no one is making a rim to that size that I know of. And that’s why I have a pile of original 8 bolt centers that aren’t installed into tubeless rims yet. I’d really like to be able to use them for several reasons, hub cap fit and clearance are a couple and they’re hub centered instead of lug centered like the Ford, Later GM, after market wheel makers and trailer rims are.
Point I’d like to get across is, if you’re going to run rims that have been reworked by this method on the highway it would be to your benefit to keep a close eye on them.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

That is some interesting info.
I'll certainly keep an eye on them.
Will the powdercoating hide a impending failure or maybe make it show up better?

thanks

rolf

Back when I was a daring young man in his flying machine,
competing in aerobatics with the IAC, the popular thing to do
when building a fuselage was to paint it a light color, white
or light gray. The G-meters maxed out at 9G's positive and 6G's
negative and we bent the planes around so much in maneuver's
that the recording needle was normally pegged in both directions.
Properly built a weld failure was pretty unusual. I worked
safety inspections at some of the contests and we saw more
weld failures in the factory built aircraft like the Bellanca
aerobatic aircraft which had MIG welded fuselages, than we did
in the home built planes. Just about all the homebuilt aircraft
were either gas or TIG welded. It was easier to see any cracks
on the light background during a preflight inspection and
almost impossible to catch with a dark color like black.
I had never been in an aerobatic airplane or even talked with
anyone involved with aerobatics when I was building my Pitts
(we dint have the internet back then) and I made the mistake
of thinking the fuselage would look real sharp black. I was
painting a half dozen BSA 30-50's that my brother was restoring
at the time, all of them in black Imron so that's what the
plane got also. And it did look sharp, but it made my inspections
a lot more time consuming:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/121521164/original
Of course the majority of us choose black for our wheels but
notice how well the cracks stand out on Charlie's light blue
wheels. He may not even have noticed them till it was to late
had they been a dark color. I'm not sure about the powder coat
so what ever I post would just be a guess. But my guess would
be that since it's simply a layer of plastic and relatively
tough compared to enamel, that a crack in the base would not
show thru till it was a big one. I've ridden behind many trucks
on the highways that have sheets of powder coat blistering off
their rear ends where the salt has gotten underneath it and
seen lots of implements with similar paint problems. Is it
obvious that I'm not a big fan of powder coating?

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

How long were split ring wheels produced. I think I have the original set for my 61 which are not on the truck right now.