The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Rebuild or Crate?

Looks like a 216 in it.

IMO, there is no question that a V8 is what a man needs to be happy. The sound alone is manly. The Chevrolet 350 engine is used in every conceivable vehicle known. Billions of parts everywhere. Now, GM crate vs home built or built by a shop owned by a guy with a short cigar. You can trust GM's warranty. Enough said. If you have never built an engine, it is indeed scary. You don't have the tools or know where to go for this and that and no experience. EASY to screw up something!. No one (that you could afford) can build an engine better, with better quality control, machinery, sanitation, training, inspection procedures, assembly procedures and knowhow than a GM certified shop. No runs, no drips, no errors.
Summit PN 19210008 350 CU IN, 330 HP pretty darn complete, $4000 out the door, free shipping. You would have to buy headers for any V8 you buy and this needs a fuel pump and very little else. Hope you can buy an equivalent engine in Canada because the Summit and others warranty does not cover engines outside the U.S. You gotta have GM Dealerships up there aye?

Jegs also has some real good pricing on GM engines. They have a 290hp 350 for under 2000.00. Might be worth checking it out.

"No one (that you could afford) can build an engine better, with better quality control, machinery, sanitation, training, inspection procedures, assembly procedures and knowhow than a GM certified shop."

Putting a motor together is not hard, or complex. A master rebuild kit for a 350 is less than $600 for a kit BETTER specs they list (and that 'performance' Summit engine doesn't even include roller cams). Complete rebuild kits are $250-ish. Performance roller kits $600-ish.

Oh, and I can do all of what you said. For less money, and get a better motor. With change.

And read the warranty..."GM Dealer Service Parts and Accessories Warranty for 24 months from the original sale or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first"

In 24 months are you gonna put 50k on a motor in a custom hotrod? Its gonna sit half the year. Is a 3-4x premium over DIY worth about 8 months of actual driving warranty?

Just offering a different point of view.

We are not talking about DIY! The guy stated he doesn't have the ability to do it himself, and won't.

The GM warranty (up here) starts from when you get them to set the timing. They verify everything is good, and start the warranty. Will you put 50K on in 2 years? No. However, most major problems will show up well before then, plus you've got the assurance knowing it was a GM-built engine, rather than some Joe up the street whose training and knowledge you can't confirm.

Again, we're talking about crate vs shop rebuilt here.

I couldn't agree more with your post, but those two sentences were both hilarious and true. You just made my day.

We do have GM dealerships up here of course, and most (if not all) sell crate engines.

with the GM crate engine everything is brand new including the block and heads. If I ever do it again I'm going to GM crate engine, may put one in my tater. 350/290hp

I do understand Farber because I like to save money, be sure it's done right, learn and have a sense of accomplishment. I think you (Farber) are overstating 1.easy, 2.better motor and possibly 3. the total price. Total price is: kit plus carb plus new intake plus 3 new pumps plus tools plus everything else because he doesn't even have a fan belt for a V8. For this OP it's not an option. For others, it's probably fun and maybe save some money if they do it right and everyone of those parts in the "kit" is good. So you tear down the whole engine to get your money back on a bad piston pin? A person like the Farbster can even fix something that goes wrong with his rebuild, an inexperienced person would be devastated. For the OP: Buy a good, hear it run, check the compression, see the smoke, V8 for $900 and take an educated chance.....or GM Crate. You can buy 4-5 of those $900 350's for one crate and get install practice. If you want easy, that's easy. I love to buy V8's that are hard to start but run good after started....get cheap, easy to fix.(for me)

You've quoted prices for parts, but what about machine shop labor? If you factor that in, is it still cheaper?

No pile on intended, just curious about the total cost in comparison, assuming that he has to farm out the machining of the block/heads.

Add $800 to $1200 for machine shop work…..

or go here:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-10067353/overview/

Use this as your baseline & have fun bolting on the intake, headers, ign. and
carb.

I'll never rebuild another small block & I've done a boatload of them.

You do have to rebuild what is not available anymore ( I do Buicks, Caddy,etc)
but, at these prices for Chevy 350s, rebuilding makes no sense. I saw a Jegs sale recently, for a Chevy 350 for 1300 & free shipping!

I thought the discussion was rebuild OR crate? I am not considering the specifics of the OP, because if he cannot DIY it, then he cannot rebuild. If we look at average Joe, he can rebuild a motor. Its nothing more than following directions. The hardest part about rebuilding a motor is the plastigauge. MAYBE fitting pistons... but really, what is so hard? I really would like to hear what part of a motor (not machining it, but the assembly) is so difficult that it cannot be done on a Harbor Freight engine stand?

$1200 for machine shop work? If the motor needs $1200 in work then you need a new motor to start with. Decking heads and all that jazz is for t.v. shows who get it for free. In the real work if a head is warped, you get another head unless its a super rare part... and for stock 350s that's never the issue.

I JUST did a 235 and total was $1500. I cannot see a 350, a motor they give away for free if you ask nicely at junk yards (Well, $175 around here) costing significantly more than $2k for a long block rebuild.

What part of a 350 rebuild is gonna push the cost to the $4k they are charging?

The funny thing is, the '$4k crate motor', is less than $2k in ACTUAL cost... $2k is labor and a few bucks for shipping. Tell me I can't knock off $2k by DIY?

As for the warranty, every part you buy for DIY (unless used) will have a warranty. So I'm not sure what the big deal is on that.

I don's see the fuss about why its so hard to DIY, nor do I see any great benefit to a crate motor. Am I missing something that would tip the scale in favor of a crate motor and the expense????

I don't see why you are taking this so personal. What you are missing is the fact that it shouldn't make you a hill of beans how someone else chooses to spend his money. Not that it is any of your business, but I chose a crate for my '56 because I didn't have a place at the time to do a rebuild.

Actually, I think you ARE missing something ….
BTW,The link I quoted was for NEW $1500 350 V8 ….. not a $4000 350 V8. So, you just answered your own question… $2K crap shoot on a fugitive from a boneyard, OR $1500 new in a crate…….

And, yes, $800-$1200 is perfectly normal depending on the needs of the motor in question….

In your scenario …the boneyard fairy gives them away and you just slap it together with new warrant-ed parts?

Which way do you think the guy who started this thread would trust most so he could go out and enjoy his truck.?

I'd believe the "giveaway" motor will probably need more than normal machining. And, did you ever call Perfect Circle or Sealed Power and try to ask for warranty consideration on a blown motor? If you are lucky they'll send you a bearing half or a piston ring….

Lastly, your "rebuild" ($2K) is a way different animal from "built-up" ($4K) ; as in, trick rockers, valve trains, crank upgrades …etc etc…. but, you knew all this …right?

Its not personal.. just trying to learn. You learn by asking QUESTIONS. If being asked a question makes you feel like an attack then that's not something I can help you with.

As for that short block for $1500 you are still another $750-1000 for parts to get a motor that starts. A DIY motor costs less, and you can put better parts in it, cheaper.

Who pays $1200 (or even $800) to machine a $175 (or more than likely a FREE) block? Its a Chevy 350. They almost grow like weeds if you just look for them.

And what are you getting done for $1200??

As for this 'warranty' do you really think that simply shipping a motor all over the country is going to be cheaper than fixing it yourself with all the $$$ you saved by not buying a plane jane motor and fixing it as it breaks?

This is a somewhat dated article.... but parts get cheaper with time and the donor motors are going to be all over junkyards:

"According to informed sources and our previous experience with the Vortec heads, this combination should make between 400 and 415 hp at 6,000 rpm, and around 420 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. These are excellent power numbers, especially when you consider that the long-block could be constructed for under $2,500. Taken as a whole, this is a great engine combination at an incredibly inexpensive price."

Read more: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49083_inexpensive_roller_cams/#ixzz2t8vZ5Xyw

How do I get a better deal with a crate motor? And don't say warranty as I don't think it saves money the way you want it to think it does.

I get $5K up front before I start building a round track SBC, and the customer will owe me another 4-5K or so before he installs it in his car. He gets a great warranty- - - - -I guarantee it to start. Once he fires it up the first time, he owns it, not me.

I guess the guys lined up waiting to buy my engines are a bunch of fools, right?
Jerry

The Squire engine has only 12 mo. warranty and will need much more money to get it to run. Farber can possibly build an engine, after magnaflux checks, for less. We have numbers all over the place here, junk yard blocks, junk yard heads, shipping, master kits, warranty value, machining, Harbor Freight stand, crate motor prices, long block, short block, turn key, all over the place. Now that we have EXCLUDED the OP, the thread is dead. Only way to figure it out is facts/figures from a crate-to-run engine and a DIY-to-run engine, including tools, comparison. I can tell Farber does know what he is talking about, but hey, be advised that crate engine prices can be very cheap sometimes and the prices for the other stuff, carbs, dizzy, coil, plugs, wires, manifolds, pumps, headers, flexplate/flywheel and all that belt driven stuff is THE SAME for both scenarios. You don't put the old stuff back on a rebuild. If you do, it's 1/2a$$.

I tried to ignore this but for the love all that is sacred, farber the two (2) options were: (1) to have an engine shop build an engine, or (2 )buy a crate engine, DIY was specifically ruled out by the original poster. Meaning, this guy is going to pay for any work done. He isn't going to do any of it himself. This has been pointed out to you at least 4 times counting this one. There are a great many people who don't do any work on their cars period. Also some people have more money than time, they are always working that is why they have money and not time. They just want to drive a cool vehicle around, not necessarily build it themselves. If you can't understand that, there isn't much anyone can do for you.

Amen

To be fair, everyone, including Farber, has acknowledged that the OP is not going to rebuild it himself. However the OP is still contemplating a rebuild. The fact is: the post has been changed to a discussion about DIY and Crate. That's why I said earlier that the OP has been ELIMINATED and that the thread is dead.
Farber, I understand your argument, but in order to stay slightly with the poster, we have to stick with him having it built by you or buying a Crate. Not you building your own or him building his own. That is another post someday. (I will admit that I have joined "Off Topic Anonymous" myself and am trying to stay on the wagon.) Now, if you say you would build it for no labor charge, I will take you off my buddy list! Catch you later, carburetor.

I hope the OP does do whatever works FOR HIM. But he really never considered more than ONE option: crate or built by another person. I can't see much of a difference there.

I am not a mechanic by profession, heck I could never deal with the customers nice enough to get any repeat business But when MY money is on the table, for a motor, a set of wrenches, milk at the store, I go for what gives me the best bang for the buck. Sometimes that means a professional (I'll NEVER hang/tape my own drywall again. Its simple to do, but just so un-fun I'll pay to make it go away), but most of the time that means I figure it out myself and DIY.

But were are talking about a Chevy 350... You can add significant power to a running motor by just swapping headers and new intake. That's about 30HP there. New cam, 30-40hp. A new set of heads, complete can add another 30-50hp so you can significantly 'warm up' a stock RUNNING motor for about $1-1.5k That's about 300hp and that can be done to any healthy motor.

You never have to machine a thing if you don't want to. There are far to many 'Farmer Hotrods' out there that have never been decked, bored, mic'd or fluxed. If its running, bolt on some go fast parts and run it.

My 270 from 1943 (yes, original serial numbered motor) is STILL on its original internals. The 58 235 I just did was also on original internals... but I got a rebuild kit to make it a daily driver. My L134 is .060 over, so next rebuild is gonna be spendy... but its an original wartime production motor... that mean sleeve it and rebuild it.. with the help of my harbor Freight engine stand

If there is no difference including price, I'll take crate.
All the rest of your post is all well known by 100's of stovebolters who have built many engines and some would be considered professional as you say you are not. They have had training, done many, many engines and have gotten paid to do it. They already know what you can do for HP, what it cost, and the difficulty factor. Most of us have known about headers and intakes, carbs, etc as a way in get HP probably back before you were born, sonny.
Seriously Farb, I get your point but your point is getting "dull". I don't know what a "farmer hot rod" is but don't explain it.

That's exactly where this thread started, for the OP, many have shared their view that a crate will be the best bang for HIS money. This discussion is long over.

Best bang for buck was in the late 1960's, brand new 327 complete made in US for $500. or so. Then there was my 20% discount.

Looks like I've got a lot of catching up to do. I've been away for a bit enjoying the frigid prairie winter. I've been talking to a couple guys around here and a plan is slowly starting to take shape. Now if only I could find someone to bankroll this...

I don't have much more than $5K in mine, over a year and a half, so if you can do lots yourself and do it little by little it shouldn't be so bad.

It would be interesting to list what you did for that $5k (if you rebuilt it yourself).

Is it a race motor or back to stock?

It seems that most people think the warranty is the best reason to pay for a crate motor, not performance. I'd really like to know what part of a DIY motor would not be 1. cheaper to replace or 2. not covered by a warranty that 3. justifies the additional cost.

Every part I took out of the rebuild kit had a manufacturers warranty, or a warranty from the place that sold it.

Has anyone with a crate motor installed ever have to use the warranty? How much did it cost (shipping, time to remove motor, get it back). I just read the Jasper engine warranty and it kinda sucks, unless you buy a long block its a 6 month warranty. And you MUST use OEM parts.

If anyone could explain it I'd be all ears.

I was talking about the entire build of my truck, not the engine.

The rebuild discussion is over.

My dictionary must be broke:

noun: discussion

1. the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

I really must not understand how this internet thing works... wanting to discuss a topic ON A DISCUSSION BOARD.

I understand if you have nothing further to contribute... but has anyone else bought a crate motor? They seem to be highly recommended... did anyone have to use the warranty? It seems that that is the overriding reason to go crate vs DIY.

Should this be another thread in another, more appropriate forum?

I think you have gone beyond discussion. I think you are here to argue.

I purchased a 502ci crate motor from a dealer in San Diego. It sucked a valve on the highway. They honored the warranty. They checked the fuel octane, oil and ignition components before they would warranty the motor though. That was 12 years ago. I sold the motor to a friend and it's still cruising today.

Whether or not the warranty was used isn't really of consequence, but it is nice to have if you do need it. I know guys that have had engines rebuilt at shops, have had continuous problems, and nothing was covered. The reason behind recommending a crate motor is that most, if not all, of the components are new, and they stand behind it. If you happen to have an issue, they'll take care of you. The majority of engine shops won't.

Will I buy one? Probably not, because I like unusual engines that don't come in crate engines, and I usually run with lower-mileage engines that aren't rebuilt. However, if I were in the OP's shoes, I would buy a crate engine. Every time.

oh he is definitely here to argue. and he is right, even though he isn't on the same topic, or in context. So farber, I would tell you why you are wrong, only this would be the third time I have told you along with the 3 or 4 other people who have told you where you have gone astray in this "discussion" with apparently yourself. Give it up...