The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 Cranks Slow when Warm

I would still get the starter you are going to be using checked,(not some other one) I have put in brand new ones that didn't work. (not just hooked up to a battery, do the megger checks and what not, test the actual components) It would be a lot easier than pulling the engine. Not to mention if it tests good, it will already be out. And at least drain the oil, to see what you can see. No, no its true, if it has bearings that tight, you will get metal in the oil. (I work on heavy industrial machinery and oil sampling/analysis is a routine and very useful procedure) And it will either get really loose, or seize up. And you could possibly lose a lot of oil pressure as well. All I know is you don't have a bearing that tight for any length of time before you reach catastrophic failure. I could be wrong of course, I have seen ball bearings run for a year with no perceptible lubrication, no idea how, but I saw it...You could have someone hold the clutch in and try turning it by hand, just on the off chance it is something in the transmission. You do have it neutral when you are turning it by hand right? At this point I take nothing for granted.

Brokenhead,
I am like you... I take nothing for granted. Yes, the Transmission is in neutral, otherwise it would try to jump when the starter was cranked. However, that being said, I have had my son hold in the clutch while I tried cranking it and that did not help. Kind of a belt and suspenders approach, like you, just to see if there was something else. I don't know if you saw my post last Friday, but I did try a totally different 12V starter out of a running pickup my son had jumpering it to the 12V battery on my Suburban which runs fine. That did not help but I believe confirmed the 6V starter is properly matched to the ring gear on the flywheel because the 12V rattled like a chain drive but didn't turn it any better.... in fact, a little worse.
I do plan on putting this same starter and flywheel on the 216 I am targeting to replace the 235 before I install that one and coupling the clutch and tranny and turning it over before I install it in the truck, just to make sure I don't have the same issue all over again. This will be easy to test. That will come in the next week or so.

sure wish you had better weather, I'm getting downright curious...

Can't believe nobody has said this yet. Sounds like your points might have too much gap. Makes the engine fight the starter and also causes a rough idle. Worth a look. Swap in a new set of points, condensor, plugs and wires. Also make sure your timing is good. A good way to check if you have a foot starter is to crank it over without the ignition switch on. If it cranks fine then it is likely a timing or ignition / points issue. Hope this helps.
Joe.

He has tried to turn the engine over by hand with the spark plugs out. Ignition timing would not have any to do with it being hard to turn.

That's correct. I have none of the ignition hooked up right now. The starter just can't seem to turn the engine over at any speed and even momentarily hangs on occasion. That's why I am saying it won't crank. To me cranking is different than starting. With the foot starter system on my truck I can crank it with the ignition off and not try to start it. Consider it like just using the starter to turn an air pump. No combustion, no spark. All that should be in play are the pistons and valves. It will turn over fine with no plugs in it when using the starter. BUt it still feels tight to me when turning by hand. I consider cranking and "starting" to be two different issues. The problem I am trying to solve first is cranking. Then I can worry about ignition, timing, carburation, etc. If I can get it started it will run and idle, etc. so I am sure that timing, valves, points, etc. are OK. Maybe not perfect, but good enough to let it run. It is the lack of being able to crank it that I am currently concerned with. As I have said before, it cranks just like the battery is dead no matter how good the charge, cables, and connections are.

come on man, what happened?

I know. Suspense is killing me.

I'm thinking it was the starter and he is too embarassed to say anything...just guessing. Why else would he leave us hanging like this?

Lol.......no news is good news? After 5 pages you think he would at least give us something..... :-)

Sorry for the delay. I've been away from the computer for a while working on something else. I have been fighting weather and other things lately, but the latest is that the engine is out of the truck and on the cherry picker. I pulled the bell housing and took the flywheel off and put it on the 216 that I intend on putting in the truck. Hooked up the starter and guess what... same problem!!! I tried the 12 volt starter and it didn't like the flywheel any better. I am dropping back and punting for now. I will take another swing at this thing when the weather warms up and I can work on it without a sledgehammer in one hand and a torch in the other. I am sure frustrated. Both engines are not in the truck, both are supposed to be running engines, etc. I am thinking of making a new set of cables from scratch in case there is something deteriorated in the cable wires. I have worked on both ends, but maybe there is something in the middle, so to speak. I will prevail. Anyone want to come to McMinnville, OR for a day and show me what I am doing wrong?

Are you sure you have the right flywheel for the voltage starter you are using?

Are you saying this other engine is also very hard to turn by hand even with the plugs out?

Wish I were closer. I'd like to see what is going on.

you really need to check the starter that you intend on using again, I know it was rebuilt by a reputable shop, but I had the machine work done on my engine at a supposedly reputable shop, had the rear main machined for a lip seal, which I couldn't get to with the engine on the stand. So after I completely assembled the engine with only the two brass plugs and the rear seal to install. I took it off the stand and the idiot had machined the hole .009-.014 too small (its not round either) So I have to completely disassemble the engine to get this fixed. I think NAPA will compensate me, (it was a NAPA shop) we are still in negotiations. I would love to come to McMinnville, it is near my uncle I haven't seen in years, there is that big airplane museum there. maybe if you are still having trouble in a month or so I will come down. Yes you should check or replace the wires, make sure the connections are clean of rust, I use never seize on the connections to prevent corrosion. I have never seen anyone else do it but it has always worked for me. It was a moment of desperation while I was in Alaska that started the never seize thing.

If you use a twelve volt starter, you have to use the fly wheel that matches it.

Bossman,

I think the best thing to do is to buy a rebuilt starter from the autoparts store and try it. If it works, keep it and try to get your money back from the rebuilder of your old one. If it doesn't work, return it to the store and keep looking for your problem.

Many, many folks here have suggested that the problem is your starter. I would start with that.


Kurt

I have been bogged down with some other issues not related to the truck right now. Sorry that I have been stalled out. I do plan on giving this another try in the next few weeks if I can keep the wolves away from the door. I am leaning towards the idea of buying another starter and trying that as suggested above by Kurt. That was actually a thought I had a couple of months ago but decided to pull the engine instead. Now I can go back to that in view of what I found comparing the two engines.
As I have said in one of my earlier posts, I am certain that the flywheel is correct based on testing with the 12 volt starter that didn't like the flywheel. As far as I know there are only 2 sizes of flywheel... one for the 6 volt and one for the 12 volt. I did measure the starter gears on both starters and confirmed that the 6 volt has the larger diameter. That's about all I have right now...

Did you make up new battery cables like you mentioned? I ran into a similar problem once and it was crappy and to small of cables. Even with a rebuilt starter it acted like you've described even with 2 sets of jumper cables from another fresh battery until I supplied it with fresh battery cables (Thats when I figured out there's like about 20 strands of wire in jumper cables and they carry 12 volts fine but they don't carry 600 amps for s^%t)
But that still doesn't answer why it's hard to turn by hand... I think I have to agree with Roy Rodgers and would have that pan off to know what IS going on from the bottom up at this point.
Not just looking at the oil but looking in the bottom of the pan and checking out the mains as others have suggested.

I just used regular over the counter battery cables designed for 12 volts and my truck starts like a champ. So if you are using welding cable I would suspect poor continuity at the connection, or something, I use never seize on battery/cable connections, it works well. Even though it is possible, I highly doubt you have 2 engines in the same state of stuck. I would have done a whole lot of research into this matter before I pulled the engine. I just wish I could see how tight this engine actually is. It is very difficult to describe something like that in print though.